Violence against women and girls

The term “violence against women and girls” is used to describe a wide range of abuses, from harassment in work and public life to domestic abuse, sexual assault and the most serious offences.

Andrea Simon, the Director of End Violence Against Women Coalition; Dawn Dines, founder of Stamp out Spiking, and Carolyn Harris MP, a member of the Home Affairs and Women and Equalities Committees, explore the interventions which are required to confront behaviour which normalises violence against women and girls. The podcast includes content on sexual harassment and violence in schools, spiking, stealthing and discussion of the investigation and prosecution of rape.

Ending violence against women and girls “is everyone’s business”, Andrea tells Caroline. “We know that ultimately, we live in a world that unless we address those underlying causes and excuses for violence against women, we won't be able to create the change that we need to see.”

Your host, for the final time in this series, is Caroline Nokes, Chair of the Women and Equalities Committee and the Conservative MP for Romsey and Southampton North

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Transcript

Caroline: Hello, and welcome to Committee Corridor. Violence against women and girls, it's defined by the United Nations as any act of gender-based violence that results or is likely to result in physical, sexual, or mental harm, or suffering to women and girls.

In the latest figures available, 177 women were murdered in the UK in 2021. And for those, female victims where a suspect was charged, 92% of the suspects were male.

But the term violence against “women and girls” is used to describe a wide range of abuses, from harassment in work and public life to domestic abuse, sexual assault, and the most serious sexual offenses.

And concentrating on the most severe cases can mean we don't see the everyday or less-reported cases for women and girls.

The so-called banter at school, college, or work, online comments, misogynistic jokes, sexual harassment, stalking, spiking - normalised behaviour that can add to a bigger picture of violence against women and girls.

I'm Caroline Nokes, and I chair the Women and Equalities Committee in the House of Commons. I'm also the Conservative MP for Romsey and Southampton North.

In this episode of Committee Corridor, we're talking to three women who have taken part in parliamentary work to examine and challenge this behaviour.

Carolyn Harris is a member of the Home Affairs Select Committee here in Westminster. The committee has been running a longstanding inquiry on violence against women and girls. It has reported on spiking and on the investigation and prosecution of rape. Later in today's podcast, we'll be asking what's been happening.

Also, we'll be talking to Andrea Simon. Andrea is the Director of the End Violence Against Women Coalition, which campaigns to challenge the policy systems and attitudes that normalise abuse.

Today, we'll be talking to her about the coalition's latest report on keeping girls safe in school.

But first, Dawn Dines is the founder of Stamp Out Spiking. Dawn first started campaigning about spiking in 2004, and she's given evidence to the Home Affairs Committee inquiry. 

You may have seen her on your screens recently, as she's taken part in several interviews alongside high-profile celebrities who they themselves, have been spiked. She's been helping people understand and prepare for the dangers. She joins me now.

Spiking is the term for when alcohol or drugs are put into someone's body without their knowledge or consent.

Dawn, why is that something that is a particular threat to women, and how does that relate to the topic of violence against women and girls that we're discussing in our podcast today?

Dawn: Well, spiking is a hugely underreported crime. And before this became a bit of a media sensation, I would say, about three years ago after the needle spikings, we’d actually done a national survey where over 97% of victims didn't report this crime to the police.

And when we delved into it, a large percentage of those victims were women and girls. And we sort of asked the questions, “Why do you think this is happening?” And they sort of came back and said, “Oh, we felt so ashamed, we felt so embarrassed, we didn't want to report it.”

And I've also had reports of spiking happening within relationships as well, which is also a bit frightening. So, I just think that we need to be so aware that this is going on and we need to be protective in our own personal surroundings.

So, when we're out having fun, isn't it dreadful to say that you really need someone to be looking over you really, to make sure that you’re kept safe.

And for us, spiking is like an invisible crime. They feel embarrassed, they feel ashamed, and they blame themselves, which is absolutely dreadful because at the end of the day, somebody is actually poisoning you. That is what is happening.

And I sort of think now, is it because perpetrators are playing on that? You know, when you go for a night out and you sometimes forget like a few minutes of the night when you've had too much to drink, you're like, “Did we pop in that pub? [No, we didn't.”

And then you look at your credit card bill, and you're like, “Oh, yeah, actually we did.” When you look at your bank statement, and are the perpetrators playing on that small amount of time that you have when you can't remember something, and then because of the date-rape drugs that they're using, then you are suddenly losing like five hours of the night.

Now, that's when it gets really frightening. That's when we realized that people are taking advantage of people and it could be for sexual assault, for rape, for robbery.

When people say to me, “Oh yeah, it was just a bit of fun,” I can't see that somebody would get their friend into such a state that they'd wet themselves, that they'd been violently sick, that they were going in and out of consciousness because that is not a prank. It really isn't.

Caroline: And you, in your work, have been calling for spiking to become a single criminal offence. So, even if no other offence is committed, if there's no assault, if there's no robbery, just the sheer act of spiking should be a single criminal offence.

And I know that individual MPs have renewed their calls in support of your work. Why do you think that's so important, and why do you think the Government has been resistant to it?

Dawn: Well, at firstly, I think it's urgent that spiking is recognized within the law, because currently, spiking can be prosecuted under two different offences. One is Offence Against the Persons Act, which was written in 1861. So, I think we can tell just by the date there really, that that needs updating.

And the other is poisoning with a noxious substance. But that has to be shown that it was done with malicious intent.

So, as you can hear from those two current laws that spiking can currently be prosecuted on, that they really need to be updated because then, and only then, will people up their game, we will have the key emergency services, will be adequately trained and resourced to deal with these crimes.

Because currently, we've had victims that I've spoken to over the last nearly 20 years now, that have said to me, “Oh, I went to the police, and they accused me of having too much to drink.”

Now, while that might be the case on some occasions, it's obviously not the case on a lot of occasions.

So, I think with just that lack of education, to be honest with you, showing how victims act, what they feel like, what they look like, this is urgent that we need key emergency services who deal with these issues to know what that is like.      

We've got other victims I've spoken to who've been pulled out of nightclubs and put out into a dark alleyway where the nightclub exit is. They didn't have their telephone; they couldn't get hold of their friends that were still inside a club. They were going in and out of consciousness.

How can this be a safe environment for young men and young women to be kept safe on? So, that's why we feel it's imperative for people who work in the day and the night time economy to have adequate training.

So, at Stamp Out Spiking now, we've got the first accredited spiking awareness courses, which we feel all people who work in the day and night time economy should have a certain degree of knowledge of how spiking is taking place, an immediate call to action.

We should have policies and procedures in place, and also at festivals, let's not forget festivals where we've had lots of people who've alleged that they've been spiked at different festivals.

And of course, there's not so much CCTV at festivals, house parties even, no CCTV at house parties. So, the general public need to be aware of how spiking is currently taking place.

What happens to them? What do they feel like? What do they act like? Because these date rape drugs are so dreadful that they actually leave you compliant. You won't put up a fight. And then the worst thing ever is that you're going to be left with no memory whatsoever of what's happened to you. How scary is that?

Caroline: Dawn, you mentioned the Offences against the Person Act that dates back to, I think it's 1861, when nobody had ever heard of a vape stick. Can you tell us something about what can now happen with vapes as well as with needles and with drinks being spiked? Are they also being used?

Dawn: Vapes are being used. We had a mother of three who I spoke to, this was probably a couple of years ago, I think it was first highlighted to me, and she was in a nightclub situation.

She was out in the smoking area and a guy came out and said, “Oh, do you want to try a bit of my vape?” They have all these different flavours now, blueberry and raspberry and chocolate and all these different flavours.

So, he handed her his vape, and he said, “Oh, let me try a bit of your vape.” So, she wasn't sure if it was his vape or her vape that had been spiked. And the next thing she started to feel really unwell.

So, she was there with a friend, and the friend's daughter. And so, she was taken outside of the nightclub and the security guards, the bouncers said, “Look, can you move her away from the entrance?”

And her friend was like, “Look, something's happened to her. She's going in and out of consciousness.” And they were like, “Could you just please move her along.” So, this is absolutely terrible when I hear stuff like this.

And they said, “Oh, she's had too much to drink.” And her friend said, “She’s like on her second drink or something.” So, she said, “Look, she hasn't had too much to drink.”

Anyway, in the end, the ambulance were called, this lady was taken into hospital and she said that her airways were blocked because her head was just slumped down and she was really worried because she couldn’t really breathe properly.

So, when the ambulance came and took her away, she said the worst thing was, is that she was trying to speak, but no words were coming out of her mouth because she thought that maybe they had spiked her so that her and her friend would be out of the way, so they could target the friend's daughter. That’s what she was panicking about at that time.

She was then taken off to hospital, she didn't have all of her personal effects with her. And when I actually done a podcast with this lady probably a year or two later, and the words that haunted me from her was that she said, “Oh my God, if I was actually being raped, do you know what? I couldn't have even opened my eyes to see who was raping me.” Now, that just haunts me, it really does.

 

Caroline: It's absolutely terrifying.

Dawn: Yeah.

Caroline: I mean, it's incredible, isn't it? And we are still reliant on legislation from the century before last to tackle it.

Dawn: This, I hope, will go to show your listeners the importance of why spiking needs to be recognized within the law.

Caroline: Dawn Dines, thank you very much for joining us.

We spoke about education there, and it's an important theme. On Women and Equalities, we have recently found that sexual harassment and abuse of female students and staff is a serious problem. We’re not the only ones to call it out.

The End Violence Against Women Coalition has published a report which found major inadequacies in how schools are addressing sexual violence.

The coalition is made up of 143 specialist women's support services, researchers, activists, survivors, and non-Governmental organisations working towards shared goals. Its director is Andrea Simon, and she joins me now.

Hello, Andrea, and thank you for taking part in the Committee Corridor Podcast. My select committee, the Women and Equalities Committee, has just released a report talking about sexual harassment and sexual violence continuing to be prevalent in schools and a real scourge.

You've just released a report calling for a whole school approach to ending violence against women and girls, and it says that women and girls are facing a national crisis of sexual violence and harassment at school.

Can you describe some of the problems that your report draws attention to?

Andrea: Yes, so “It’s About Time” report has shown that a third of girls don't feel safe from sexual harassment in schools. But we know that this has been going on for a very long time. We know about the scale of sexual harassment and sexual violence in schools.

Our own research back in 2010 had found that one in three, 16 to 18-year-old girls had experienced groping or other unwanted sexual touching at schools.

And obviously, the Women and Equality Select Committee did their own work in 2016, which found that there were five and a half thousand sexual offenses recorded in schools over a six-year period, including 600 rapes.

So, the scale of the problem is very, very clear, and we've been trying to raise awareness most recently through this report, but also, through a campaign film that we launched in January, which we co-created with young people.

They wanted to talk about their experiences of sexual harassment in schools. And the film itself, it depicts a series of really common experiences including unwanted sexual touching but also, the pressure to share intimate images.

Alongside that film, we put a survey out which told us that 80% of girls think schools need to do more to support young people's sex and relationship education, but very large numbers of them.

So, over 60% said they felt uncomfortable about their body or their uniform because of comments that they'd received and that they'd felt pressured into sharing sexual images.

One in four girls had said that they had felt that they had shared a sexual image under pressure, had maybe initially wanted to, but later regretted it.

So, this is all showing us that the challenges are still really widespread and that this sexual harassment and abuse epidemic that girls and young people face in schools is very pervasive.

Caroline: That 80% figure wanting schools to do more is really stark, isn't it? Why aren't schools and indeed parents better equipped to deal with the impact that this is having on our young women?

Andrea: I think there's quite a few issues. In terms of what schools need to do, I think that whilst the Government has said that they're really committed to ending violence against women and girls, what we've seen is a lack of resourcing for that kind of key prevention work and relationships and sex education still to materialise.

As we think that some of it is down to not having enough political will and the Government might be not prioritising enough of this work.

For example, there was an announcement in 2019 that schools will be receiving smillion to fund training and support for the rollout of relationships and sex education.

But we know from data from FOIs that the media did in 2022 that only 3.2 million of that had been spent. So, there is a lack of resourcing that's going into schools to support this as well.

In terms of parents, there are huge challenges I think, in terms of the rise of technology use amongst young people and how much exposure they have to sort of harmful content, including the rise of misogynistic influences, we've all heard of Andrew Tate.

Many young people are being influenced and potentially, radicalised into dangerous misogynistic ideology, which is playing out in schools with teachers often left to pick up the pieces and parents, just feeling like they're not equipped to arm their young people with what they need to stay safe and to turn away from some of those influences.

So, I think it’s a combination of what's going on more widely within society and in online spaces, but then schools also not getting that kind of support that they need to properly resource the training and the rollout of relationships and sex education.

Caroline: So, you've mentioned RSHE, the fact that half the money that was allocated hasn't been spent, but we know that the Department for Education is currently undertaking a review into relationship, sex, and health education. What would you like to see happen as a result of that review?

Andrea: It's really important that we are actually looking at what's being delivered because we think that it's quite patchy and young people have said that they feel that it's ineffective.

There was a recent survey done by Sex Education Forum that found that over 40% of young people aged 16 and 17, rated that the relationships and sex education they'd received at school as good. So, that means that 60% didn’t think it was.

The topics that children and young people feel that they don't get enough coverage of, include things like the power imbalances in relationships, pornography, and LGBTQ+ relevant information.

So, we think that the quality of relationships, education being delivered isn't really what young people say they need and want. We've also heard quite a lot about troubling backlash to the subject, largely fuelled by claims about inappropriate content being taught as well.

And we worry that there is a real risk of shutting down very important conversations that young people want and need, and the spaces in school that they can have to have those kind of honest and open discussions.

It's really important that the curriculum that's delivered looks at the context and the scenario for young people today.

So, the fact that they're exposed to huge amounts of misogyny online, the fact that they're increasingly looking to things like pornography to fill the gaps in sex education, and to support teachers with holding those spaces for young people to openly discuss those things.

And the way that we think that this should be done is via a whole school approach to preventing violence against women and girls, which focuses on prevention, education, and safeguarding.

So, addresses the needs of pupils, staff, the wider community across the whole school environment, looks at the curriculum, but also, the learning environment to just address how well the school's physical environment as well as the actions that are taken more broadly, within the school to address violence against women and girls are working.

So, our main ask is to really see relationships and sex education delivered within this whole school approach.

Caroline: And in that whole school approach, you mentioned staff, we heard from the TUC that female staff also experienced sexual harassment at work. Did your report find much evidence of that, and what's the scale of that problem?

Andrea: So, from our report, we did look at how teachers often dismiss or minimise girls' experiences of harassment, and sometimes actually engage in victim blaming when incidents have happened.

We found that 60% of young women had heard teachers using sexist language, and that 40% of girls had said that they'd had derogatory comments made about their body or uniform, and had experienced those comments from a teacher.

But we know that the teaching union NASUWT ran a survey in 2020, which found that 7 in 10 female teachers had been victims of misogyny in school. So, we’re aware that teachers are also immune from this.

That they may be doing things that are making girls' lives difficult in schools, and that is also going to translate into the way that they interact with female colleagues as well. So, it is definitely an issue.

Caroline: My select committee’s just launched an inquiry looking at the escalation of violence against women and girls. Can you talk me through what evidence you think there is of everyday misogyny, the sort of groping that you have referenced in your report, leading to even worse offences?

Andrea: We think that early intervention when it comes to sexual offending is really vital in order to prevent escalation. And so, we think that it's really important that relationships and sex education in schools is based on principles of consent and equality.

It's one of the ways that we can help to prevent young people from experiencing abuse, but also, perpetrating abuse and violence when we're thinking about how do we shift attitudes across the whole of society.

The Ofsted review that happened in 2021, found that 9 out of 10 girls had experienced some kind of sexist name calling, and over 90% had been sent explicit photos or videos, and that there was a normalisation of harmful sexual behaviour in all education settings.

So, we think that this issue is very urgent. The normalised everyday sexual harassment, sexual name calling, unwanted touching is actually very serious in and of itself.

And it has a knock-on impact because girls end up missing out on their right to education and potentially, not fulfilling what they might be able to do at school because of the environment and the poor responses that often single out victims and remove them from classroom settings rather than addressing the issues with the person who's been accused of causing the harm.

So, it's really important that we address that kind of behaviour and know that it's harmful in its own right, but also, to think if we don't, we're sending a very clear message that this kind of behaviour can be tolerated, and that can lead to feelings of being able to do it with impunity.

So, boys that experience this in schools, go to further education, go to university, go out into the world of work, and keep having the message reinforced that nothing will really be done or it's not very serious.

So, we think it's very important to tackle that at the earliest stage, and have that dialogue with young people about what healthy relationships and healthy behaviour and equality looks like.

Caroline: There have been a number of debates in Parliament, a terminate rule Bill from my colleague Richard Graham, the Home Affairs Select Committee has looked at spiking.

Is it important that television shows like Hollyoaks and Coronation Street, who have both addressed that issue, make sure that there's wider awareness of some really serious problems that we know are impacting young women?

Andrea: I think it is. I think it's very important. I think it's also, as you say, impactful for TV shows, and the wider media to raise awareness of these issues.

We do need to see more work happen to educate the public about things like spiking and other forms of violence against women and girls. I mean, that is an issue that often gets spiking terribly minimised.

People who do it, perpetrators can say their motives to do it as a joke or a prank, but it's actually really serious crime. And frankly, those men who do this are absolutely very dangerous.

And I think what's important is when these TV shows are picking up these themes and using them in their shows, is that there's that balance between raising awareness, but also ensuring that we are not reinforcing that the burden a lot of the time should lie with women and girls to keep themselves safe.

We already do so much invisible safety work any way. We have to be really clear and put messages out into the public that we have to address these kinds of behaviours with men and boys. And we've started to see that with the Government's Enough Campaign.

The Mayor of London has a campaign called Have a Word, which are all about challenging harmful attitudes and encouraging everyone to be active bystanders.

I think the work that happens on TV shows along with the conversations in Parliament are all about changing or should be about changing public attitudes and that's long-term work.

Caroline: So, lots of people know about spiking, not so many know about stealthing and other forms of sexual violence. It really is an issue that people are not sure about, don't understand.

Can you help explain it, and also, just give us your view on what that says about our understanding of rape?

Andrea: So, stealthing is the act of removing a condom without a partner's consent or lying about having put one on in the first place, and stealthing, it does actually constitute rape under English and Welsh law. So, that means someone can be prosecuted for doing it.

We did some research on attitudes to sexual consent in 2018. It's a piece of research of almost 4,000 survey respondents, and it showed that there was a really worry and confusion about what rape is and how much harm rape actually does.

And it found many people can't identify rape, but in some cases, the public's view didn't match the laws on rape. The vast majority of people are raped by someone they know in an acquaintance context.

But the rules about consent, whether it's coerced and what's being consented to, again, public haven't got a very strong grasp often about those. So, 33% of people in that survey thought that sex which happens without consent, but where there was no physical violence, isn't really rape.

And it was really worrying as well that stealthing is not understood as rape. 20% thought it was never rape, and another 20% thought it would not normally be rape with some exceptions.

So, that's really telling us that the confusion and myths about rape and what real rape is, is still very common. And if you take that further, it could explain why sometimes it's hard for juries, for example, to make decisions if they don't necessarily understand or agree with our laws on rape.

And it's also a factor for when victims disclose what's happened to them, to friends and family as well. If what they've experienced isn't understood as harmful or even rape, then they can feel very unsupported.

So, I think all of that means that when it comes to attitudes around rape and sexual abuse, we need active interventions such as those public information campaigns that I've mentioned to support change in public attitudes, and awareness and raising education levels about it.

Caroline: And can you respond just quickly, there were allegations earlier this year that a metropolitan police deputy commissioner had used the term “regretful sex” to describe rape.

How does that further undermine women's confidence when it comes to coming forward and reporting what we know are serious sexual crimes?

Andrea: I think it's very problematic if those narratives are out there for women to hear. Because we’re in a society where rape myths and stereotypes are really common. And those are actually the types of things we're trying to strip out, and away from the justice system.

There's a law commission review that's going to be looking into how rape myths and stereotypes can affect evidence in rape cases. And so, it's a really important key thing that needs to change if we're going to increase access to justice for women.

So, those kinds of comments we do know are quite common within policing because much of rape investigations are prefaced on putting the credibility of victims at the heart of the rape investigation.

That's why we've welcomed the recent announcement about the rollout of Operation Soteria, which is a new programme of how to investigate rape, that's been developed with the oversight of academics and it's being rolled out across all the police forces and CPS areas in the country.

And that very much at the heart of it puts a need to focus on suspects and their potential previous offending history, allegations that they may have had about them before, but investigating the suspect and not investigating the victim.

Caroline: Autumn's coming up, and we know that a lot of young people will be headed off to a new college and some to higher education and university. Both the Women and Equalities Committee and the Education Select Committee have looked at the issue of unwanted sexual contact, harassment in our universities.

What message would you give to young women and young men who are going to be starting their higher education course this year? How can they best respect themselves and each other?

Andrea: I think it's the same message actually to everybody in society. Ending violence against women and girls, it is everyone's business.

And we all have a responsibility and a need to hold each other accountable for our actions and to challenge so much of the everyday sexism, the misogyny that gets normalised across society.

For those young people going to university, lots of this can feel or be called banter. There isn't really anything funny about misogyny and violence against women and girls.

We know that ultimately, we live in a world that unless we address those underlying causes and excuses for violence against women, we won't be able to create the change that we need to see.

So, I would say young men - feel it is your problem. Get involved in holding your friends to account if you hear it and you see it. If you have experienced anything like harassment or abuse, do know that help is available from specialist organisations as well.

And you can get in touch with groups like Rape Crisis, Refuge and their domestic abuse helpline, Women's Aid, and a range of other specialist organisations if you do need help, if you've experienced anything.

 

Caroline: Andrea Simon, thank you so much for joining me today. It's been a fantastic conversation.

Andrea: Thank you very much. Thanks for having me on.

Caroline: Carolyn Harris is a member of the Home Affairs Select Committee here in Westminster, and she joins me now.

Carolyn, welcome to Committee Corridor.

Carolyn: Thank you for having me.

Caroline: Now, you are a member of the Women and Equalities Committee and a member of the Home Affairs Select Committee, both of which are doing an enormous amount of work around misogyny.

But specifically, the Home Affairs Committee published a report last year on the investigation and prosecution of rape.

The committee was really clear that the system of handling rape and sexual offenses needed constant review and reform, and particularly, there needed to be more work on how to support victims.

The Government’s recently announced that all 43 police forces in England and Wales have signed up to Operation Soteria, is that encouraging?

Carolyn: It is encouraging. And if I could just say the reason why I chose to go on Home Affairs and Women and Equalities, is because of the joined-up work. The fact that a lot of what we talk about on Home Affairs, we also talk about on Women and Equalities. And I just thought it'd give me a broader picture of the whole thing.

To go back to prosecution of rape, it absolutely terrifies me. It terrifies me how many women don't report, it terrifies me how many women report and get ignored. And it terrifies me that the pockets of good practice are not quite as readily taken up across the country as I'd like to see.

And I've got personal experience as in over the last few months, a very close relative of mine who has other problems was raped. And I was the only person who could go with her to the rape centre. I was the only person that she'd allow to go to the rape centre. And thankfully, my police force has got fantastic practice.

So, I've actually gone through the interview, I've witnessed the medical, I'm dealing with the aftermath. And I know how difficult it would be for her, but to not have that sensitivity, which what the Home Affairs Committee is looking for, included in the process, it must be absolutely hell.

So, we cannot allow that to continue. Women and men deserve the dignity in any situation, but when they have been a victim of a rape, it is even more so important that we give them every opportunity to have dignity, to have respect, and to feel that they can trust the people that they're dealing with.

Caroline: Thank you for sharing that, Carolyn. I just wanted to say, following on from that, you saw good practice in Wales. We know that forces like Avon and Somerset have exceptionally high standards, but you mentioned it; pockets of good practice.

We know there is a real problem in the Metropolitan Police Force and that there is, as the Director of Public Prosecutions described it, ‘a crisis of confidence’ in criminal justice agencies. What can be done to tackle that?

Carolyn: Attitudes, I think the biggest problem is attitudes need to change. I've listened to women who say they've reported incidents of rape, especially where unfortunately, the perpetrator was a serving officer. And when she's made the complaint, the investigating officer dismissed it and said, “Oh, I know him well, he's a lovely guy.”

And then they wonder why people aren't prepared to come forward and to make that case against a rapist.

But it's attitudes. I mean, some of it is historic. Some of it is to do with the person. The victim may present to someone who is involved in an activity which the police may think leads to rape.

And I've spoken to many victims of prostitution who say they get raped on a daily basis. And when I say, “Well, have you reported to the police?” They say, “The only thing the police want to do is move me on.”

So, there's a perception about the victim, maybe, and I don't want to say encouraging the rape, but have put themselves in positions where if they had not been there or they'd not been dressed the way that they were, that they might not have become a victim.

This is old-fashioned, but it's immoral and we need to change attitudes. There's a saying, isn't it? Live and let live, but we don't live and let live. We make decisions and we judge people by how they look, what they say, and who we perceive them to be. And we have to change that.

Caroline: And so much of that leads to what we refer to as victim blaming, victim shaming. And when talking to our other guests, we've been talking about spiking, and a real narrative there that victims are afraid to come forward because they think they'll be dismissed as just having been drunk. They'd had too much to drink, “You weren't spiked, it's too much alcohol.”

Now, what does   say about creating new offence, a specific offence of spiking? Do you think that will help the response to those incidents and the effectiveness or prevention strategies? The Government certainly disagrees.

Carolyn: Yeah, I mean, it has to be a separate offence and the Government don't want it to be a separate offence, which I just cannot understand.

But when you look at the vulnerability, especially around music festivals, when you look at how young some of the people attending musical festivals are and how easy it is for them to become victims of spiking … and unless we actually start punishing people appropriately for this, we are not going to get to the point where people will take action on this on a serious level.

Caroline: Spiking sometimes is regarded as the victim's fault, but actually, it's one of those horrible crimes that can be done for any reason, can it? Sometimes for entertainment, sometimes to steal money off the individual and sometimes, for really hideous sexual assaults.

The Women and Equalities Committee is doing a bit of work asking around that sort of crime and whether it can lead to an escalation of offences and whether if somebody has been a spiking perpetrator, whether it leads to much, much more serious acts of violence.

Is that something that you recognize from the work being done on the Home Affairs Committee?

Carolyn: It certainly is. And I mean, I would argue very strongly that spiking is premeditated. It is somebody who's actually decided to purchase or obtain a specific substance with the sole intention of putting someone in a very vulnerable position.

And allow them to do whatever it is they've decided they want to do, which is, as you said, Caroline, is either going to be a sexual offence, it could be a robbery. Very often, it is for amusement because of the physical reaction.

Anyone who's capable of doing that is capable of committing other crimes and doing other things, because that's not entertainment, that's premeditated criminality in my mind. And that's just another reason why it needs to be suitably challenged.

Caroline: Absolutely. Now, somebody who was a huge champion for the interests of women and girls in particular, is Dame Vera Baird, the former Victims’ Commissioner. She stood down nearly a year ago now.

What impact do you think the fact that that post is still vacant is having on women and girls in this country?

Carolyn: Very detrimental, and the same is true with the modern slavery commissioner. These posts were created for a reason.

And the reason they were created is that there was obviously a need for someone to oversee what the Government does, what the statutory agencies do, and how victims are treated. If that post is not being utilised, then who's got that oversight?

Because we can all defend our little pockets of what we do, but somebody needs to oversee it all. And all these positions, especially the role that Dame Vera Baird had, are essential for women to have confidence in the systems that we'd expected to live by and to toe the line by. It's really important that we get people in those posts as a matter of urgency.

Caroline: Thank you very much for joining us on Committee Corridor. Your insight is as ever, bang on the money. So, thank you very much for being with us.

Carolyn: Thank you very much.

Caroline: My thanks to all my guests today. If you'd like to find out more about the work of either of the committees we talked about today, search for the Women and Equalities Committee or the Home Affairs Committee plus UK Parliament.

So, this is my final episode of Committee Corridor for now.

 Select committees are small groups of MPs who work across party to ask questions about pressing topics they've agreed to investigate.

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I'm Caroline Nokes, and this has been Committee Corridor, thank you for listening.

Further information

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