House of Lords Podcast: the Speakers

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‘We share a common heritage in that we're both local lads from the area that we represented. And that was a really important element of our representative history’
Lord McFall of Alcluith

In this episode, the Speakers discuss how their similar backgrounds have forged a new working relationship between the two speakers, the importance of engaging with the whole country and the surprisingly international aspects of their roles.

‘It's about both using soft power to make friends around the world, reaching out... Democracy matters to both of us, so it's about meeting up with people, sharing ideals’
Sir Lindsay Hoyle

The Speakers also discuss the challenges of the last two years and preparing for the future.

‘I'm still trying to get used to the idea of... What is a Speaker in the Commons really like? Because we've not really found out what it's like. No sooner than I got elected, within days I'm into a General Election, then Christmas comes, everybody's talking about Brexit, and before we know it, we're then into a pandemic.’
Sir Lindsay Hoyle

‘I keep thinking of 2007, which to me, was just round the corner, but in 2007, that was the year of the iPhone. And that's a new life that's been adopted since 2007. So the pace of change, technologically, is going to be great. And we have got to be alive to that. Because our primary interest is engaging with the public, and with society.’
Lord McFall of Alcluith

• Find out more about the Lord Speaker, Lord McFall of Alcluith
• Find out more about the Speaker of the House of Commons, Sir Lindsay Hoyle

 

Transcript

Lord Speaker:

Hello, I'm John McFall. I'm Lord McFall of Alcluith, the Speaker of the House of Lords.

Mr Speaker:

I'm Lindsay. I'm the Speaker of the House of Commons, coming up to this prestigious building.

Lord Speaker:

You're most welcome.

Mr Speaker:

Thank you.

Matt:

Thank you very much, Lord Speaker, Mr Speaker for joining us on the podcast this month. Delighted to be asking the questions to not one, but two Speakers! So, can I start with a bit of history? You both sat in the Commons between '97 and 2010. Did you work much together then? And did that sort of relationship you built up there mean that you worked together well as Speakers?

Mr Speaker:

Lord McFall was too grand then. I was just a lowly Labour backbencher. No, in fairness, he was held in high esteem amongst colleagues right across the House of Commons. So it's not just from a background of both being in the Labour Party. I actually was on DTI Select Committee with Martin O'Neil, who's tragically no longer with us. So we used to look across to this Chair of the Treasury Select Committee. But I was on DTI, always knew about John. Well-respected, well-renowned, and I've got to say... it's not often you can say, that he was a politician everybody spoke very highly of. So yes, I did know him, but not that closely. That friendship grew later.

Lord Speaker:

And I occupied a seat behind Lindsay, about two benches behind him, at the end. So I looked down on Lindsay every time I went into the House. But what I remember about Lindsay is he sat near the edge of the gangway, and he was bobbing up and down all the time, asking the questions every time almost, on behalf of his constituency, and on behalf of his areas. And we share a common heritage in that we're both local lads from the area that we represented. And that was a really important element of our representative history, because it's a dual function you have. And I say to people that what I do in the constituency informs how I ask questions, and how I approach my work in Westminster, and Lindsay was the very same. So we echoed the local element too, we realized that we were representatives having to undertake work... particularly when we were in government on these issues, but we never forgot the local element of it, and Lindsay was high up in that all the time.

Mr Speaker:

Of course. John's absolutely correct. We're local guys, local community knows us, born and brought up there. Because I always say to MPs, we're the lucky ones. Because if somebody mentions a street, a road somewhere in the constituency, not only will I know the road. I'd probably know someone on it. And it's exactly the same for both of us.

Mr Speaker:

The leader of the council said to me, when I got first elected... Tony Blair, huge landslide, came in and he said to me, "Lindsay, enjoy it. If you're lucky you might two terms." So, I've got to tell you... that stuck with me. I take it so seriously, I'm still knocking all the doors. I still do all the things. And it's important to me. Because in the end, when somebody says to me, "You're always on about that hospital." Yeah, I was born in that hospital. That's why it matters to me. That supermarket matters. That market matters, because that's where I shopped, just like John. It's our local community. We're embedded in that community. I was the mayor of the town, I was on the council, I did 18 years on the council before I came to Parliament. Always represented the village I live in since 1980. So we've got great affinity, and that's why we've got so much in common on that.

Matt:

And that helps with working together as Speakers?

Lord Speaker:

Oh, absolutely. I could tell one tale myself, on local. There's a small village in my constituency known as Renton, it's very small. They actually have a football team that won the Scottish cup in 1880. So their history goes way back. It's forgotten now. But I went to the local school, Renton Primary. And I knew the teacher. And she introduced me to the class. And she said, "And who's our special guest today? Does anyone know?" And this hand shot up to the front with alacrity. "Yes, miss, I know. It's John McFall. He's the Prime Minister of Renton."

[Laughter]

[Division bells start sounding - indicating a vote is taking place in one of the Houses]

Mr Speaker:

That just sums up the affinity, isn't it. And I think that's what's so good about it. John's so, so well known. I'm the same. The people would stop and talk to us. And I think that's what really matters. They know who we are. People come up from Westminster, they say, "Everybody knows you. Everybody speaks to you." Yeah, because I've always lived there. But it's the same for both of us. It's that close affinity... John, very close to the church, like myself. Friends all over. Whether it's the farmers, whether it's the church, the schools, everybody knows us, because we work on behalf of everybody. And I think that's what has always mattered to both of us. I'm just going to say this. Not only was he a famous teacher, I go to this company in Blackburn, major company, and this guy says to me, "Do you know John McFall? He used to teach me, you know." And he knew them! He knew both the brothers.

Lord Speaker:

Yes, I know. I said, " You were talking to Rosemary Curry's son?" Exactly.

Mr Speaker:

Not only do they no longer live there, they even come down to Lancashire. They still talk about the MP that they had.

Matt:

Obviously, this is a House of Lords podcast, but nonetheless it'd be remiss, Mr Speaker, if I didn't give you an opportunity to tell us about life in the Commons at the moment. And particularly as well, with Lord McFall's kindly shared with us before what he does as Lord Speaker, so could you tell us a little bit about your role as Speaker in the Commons, please.

Mr Speaker:

Yes. I'm still trying to get used to the idea of... What is a Speaker in the Commons really like? Because we've not really found out what it's like. No sooner than I got elected, within days I'm into a General Election, then Christmas comes, everybody's talking about Brexit, and before we know it, we're then into a pandemic. So looking back, I'm on an education program. Just like the MPs that came in, in 2019, I'm trying to establish what is the Commons like. We are getting somewhere near how it should be.

Mr Speaker:

So I've got to say, going through that very dark period... It was a very dark period. The pandemic came, there was nobody in the buildings, I was virtually here on my own, there was about 50 people around, just like Lord McFall. It was about keeping the House open, keeping it operational. And that was the major challenge. And as people will know, they'll tell you what... for the last 750 years, and 158 Speakers have done in the past. Nobody has done, as the 158th Speaker, anything like we're doing now. Because of course, it takes centuries to change something, normally. But we had to change it within 24 hours.

Mr Speaker:

And what it did show me about this great Palace and these great Houses, how the staff adapted, how the staff made a real difference, how they changed the way we worked overnight. People said it's not possible. They made it possible. And they made my job so much easier. One, we've got so many staff that go into this building, it's about the security stuff, but it was about getting people through this pandemic. It's about people being at home, doing the right thing by them, making sure that they were kept in touch with as well.

Mr Speaker:

Of course we've got MPs, it's not just about MPs. As the Speaker I have a role in the duty of care to the staff of the House of Commons. I have a duty of care to the staff that work for the MPs as well, and about all those people who make this place tick, the police, and the people that come in to support us. So it's about working with them in very difficult times, and times that nobody could foresee. And getting through that made a real difference for me as Speaker.

Mr Speaker:

So now what I've got to say is: I've been through all that, and hopefully I will now begin to establish what the role of the Speaker should be in normal times. But at the end of that, the Speaker's bit in the chamber is such a small part of being Speaker. When we start at 8:30 in the morning, and I'm still here at 10:00pm, and three hours may have been done in the Chamber. The rest of the time is booked up with other things. So it's about the Speaker's role that's much greater.

Lord Speaker:

Well, actually, if you bear down on it, there's a real similarity between what Lindsay does and I do. For example, I'm responsible for the business in the House, and sitting. So I'm on the woolsack, just as Lindsay's on the Speaker's chair. I also chair the Commission. And that is a real heavy responsibility. And I'll come back to that element, but it's very similar there. And also, I've got an ambassadorial role like Lindsay. For example, just in the past few weeks, I've met the EU Ambassador, the Japanese Ambassador... I'm going to the South Korean embassy this week. I met the Spanish ambassador and the German one. And therefore, Lindsay and I have got the responsibility of representing the House to the outside world. And that's very important. And we must ensure that it's a welcoming place.

Mr Speaker:      

It is, and it's about both using soft power to make friends around the world, reaching out... Democracy matters to both of us, so it's about meeting up with people, sharing ideals, and a nice, soft approach to visiting ambassadors, to make sure their country feel that they've got somebody to speak to, whether that's in the Commons or the Lords, they've got that. But it's also about this... I believe a unique working relationship between the Lords and the Commons at the moment. I think it's so, so important to both of us. And the way that Lord McFall, myself and the two Clerks... we meet, we sit down, we discuss - how can we help each other? What does the future mean for both of us? What can we do together? And it is those issues that we're able to discuss.

Mr Speaker:

There is no imaginary brick wall between these two buildings. It's about being able to go between the two buildings. One time they said to me, "Oh, the Speaker can't just... The Lords have to come to the Speaker of the Commons. He's the senior person." Why? My legs are able to walk down here. I enjoy a nice cup of tea with my good friend, even if there's not a biscuit on offer. I'm still more than happy to come and sit... That's what I said. It's about that difference, it's about building a working relationship. A relationship that benefits everybody. And that's what we both want to do.

Mr Speaker:

And hopefully, that's beginning to be seen and to be shown. Why aren't we working closer together on certain areas as well? Why don't we have a joint committee that begins to share some of the roles? That saves money. I'm not talking about taking power away from either House. Far from it. But there's savings to it, by working together. Let's discuss it. There are things that we can do, that we can make happen, where I don't believe it was possible in the past.

Lord Speaker:

And Lindsay and I are mindful of the duty of care concept. The staff matter to us as well. This is to be a place where people feel that they're welcome, and their initiative and their experience and their skills are appreciated on that. And that cultural element is really important for us. And the criteria for today, I think with Lindsay coming along to me today, was age. And so that's why we're in in the House of Lords at the moment...

Mr Speaker:

He's trying to say I'm the older one!

Lord Speaker:

But our duty of care and reaching out is important. And during the next three weeks, I'll be visiting Northern Ireland and the Scottish Parliament as well. And Lindsay and I are very much aware that there is a country beyond Watford. It's really important. And we've got to engage with the whole country.

Mr Speaker:

Well, the world starts beyond Watford.

Matt:

As I understand.

Mr Speaker:

Just today, it's interesting... The Isle of Man, the Chief Minister's been in. We've got that relationship. Here we are, Crown dependencies. These are Crown territories. It's so, so important that they also feel... Because it's the part that we make decisions impacts on them. Just in the same way of overseas territories. They are all part of both Houses.

Matt:

It might surprise people listening to the podcast, the different dimensions to both of your roles. You mentioned the ambassadorial part of it, the visits, chairing commissions and stuff like that. And obviously we're sat here and annunciator's going... Is that a division in the Lords? As we're sat here. But the question, I suppose to ask is what's the most difficult thing about your roles? Is it the busyness of it, or...

Mr Speaker:

Making friends and losing friends, depending on who you take for questions. That's always the difficult... I've got to say, it's amazing, isn't it. Everybody's smiling at you so that you'll call them next. The moment that somebody doesn't, it's amazing how you no longer it's a smile at you, it's almost hate that comes out...

Mr Speaker:

The one thing we must remember, we're all volunteers. Nobody's made us become an MP. And certainly nobody made us become the Speaker. We put ourselves forward. So I always think, not only is it a privilege to represent the people of Chorley, just in the same way as Lord McFall, born and brought up there, to represent and become an MP for Chorley, to me, was everything. And the icing on the cake was to become Speaker. Nobody made me do it. I volunteered for it. And I've got to say, it's not smooth all the time. But in the end, it's a damn good job. It's good to be an MP, and I said the icing on the cake was to become Speaker. I have no complaints. I get the best out of it. I try to put everything into it. And I try to take the best out of it. So I really do enjoy... It's an absolute privilege. Never before have they had the Lancashire accent in the Speaker's chair - in 158 years, they've forgotten about the Red Rose county, well I'm here to remind them Lancashire's alive and well, and we're beginning to run London.

Lord Speaker:

And I'm the first Scot to be the Lord Speaker. And when I came down here all those years ago, I think I was speaking rather fast in my own dialect. So I said, the only concession I will make to people down here is that I will speak slower so that they can understand the intelligent contribution I am making.

Mr Speaker:

Brilliant.

Matt:

Opportunity...

Mr Speaker:

That's a showstopper. Lord Speaker, that is the showstopper.

Matt:

How do you follow that? Opportunity here, before I come on to rivalry and inter-house rivalry... Is there anything particular you admire, about how the other House works? Maybe start with the Lord Speaker?

Lord Speaker:

Actually, Prime Minister's Questions is roundly condemned on a lot of occasions with the media. But I liked Prime Minister's Questions. You've got to, first of all, realise it's theatre. You've got to realise where members are coming from. But the important thing about Prime Minister's Questions, whether you're a government Minister, or an Opposition frontbencher, or a member, is there's a message you want to get out, so amid the bluster, amid the humour, or whatever else, you have got to get that message out and if you're putting a question to the Prime Minister, I went with the rule that if you go over 40 seconds, people start getting bored. And they'll heckle, and they'll shout...

Matt:

Mr Speaker's nodding.

Lord Speaker:

Exactly. So get your message over in 40 seconds. And I'm sure Lindsay in that experienced position as Mr Speaker would endorse that completely.

Mr Speaker:

I certainly get a cough. My pen taps very heavily on the side of the chair arm... Frustration if people start taking too long. So what it means is, somebody else isn't going to get in and that's totally unfair. Selfishness is something that we shouldn't have to prescribe to.

Matt:

Thinking about before you both became Deputy Speakers and obviously now Speakers, how much as backbench MP, or in your case, Lord McFall as backbench Peer, did you work with other members of the House to get things done for your constituencies or to change legislation?

Lord Speaker:

That's the unseen element, members. I mentioned about liking Prime Minister's Questions. But the drawback about that is that people will think that you're at each other's throats all the time. It's nothing like that. Give you an example, myself as Chairman of the Treasury Committee, I took over in 2001 to the 2010 election, and Lindsay will inform you as well that that was a very sensitive political committee because it was, if you like, one of the most important and politically divisive. But my task was to say to fellow members from across the spectrum, "Look, if we're going to have any purchase in public and indeed in the floor of the House, then the reports we make have got to be unanimous." In other words, I've got to be factual. Because if we're not unanimous, it's just seen as one side saying something and one side saying another thing.

Lord Speaker:

And I'm proud of the fact that the Treasury Committee, under my Chairmanship, had a 100% record in unanimity. And what I did is mirrored elsewhere, in the Commons as well, particularly. And it's that collective will to ensure that we get a policy right, and to hold the government to account in that role. And that's a really big element. So any time we talk about Prime Minister's Questions, I really have to balance it with the co-operation that we find across the chamber as well, on that. I chaired on the woolsack last Friday, a bill on work and the definition of work, whether one is employed or where one is taken on as a consultant basis. It was introduced by a Labour peer, but it was followed by a Conservative peer, who agreed completely with the proposal put forward. A cross-bencher then came in as a result of that. And having that unanimity of purpose really helps influence public policy as well. So a key important element is that working across the aisle, as Americans would say, and ensure you get that unanimity. And I think Lindsay would agree on that.

Mr Speaker:

Absolutely. And I think the issue is that whether you're a backbench MP, a campaigner - I was speaking up for Chorley - you run campaigns whether that was free TV licenses or free bus passes - we started that off in Chorley. Brought it through, took ages for the government to pick up on it, and they did. Thankfully, to people like Lord McFall, started to find with them where the money was that we can pay for these things when we're there. And it was about starting that, and even being on the select committee, opposing the government on the privatization of Royal Mail. When I was there, we wouldn't dream of doing it. Only comes after I've left that role in DTI.

Mr Speaker:

So there were great big issues, great big campaigns that you could run as a backbencher and been part of it. The fight to make sure that Gibraltar had the right of self-determination, that was going to be taken off them. And I ran that campaign very heavily. I made friends, but I certainly made a lot of enemies. The fact that it didn't quite fit in.

Mr Speaker:

Sometimes you've got to say, "If the government's not quite right, you've got to stand by the conviction of your beliefs." Which I did. See, I wasn't a natural rebel, but if I needed to be, I could put my view across, and couldn't be quite forced through the lobby if I didn't think it was right. Because in the end, I always said to people, it's not the whips that elect me, it's the good people of Chorley. I've got to go and face them on a Saturday. I might face the whips that night, but when I face my constituency, I've got to be able to hold my head high.

Mr Speaker:

And that's what I've always tried to... Bill says to me "Ah, you can no longer represent us now. You're speaker of the Commons." But don't forget I still go back to Chorley every weekend because, just like Lord McFall, our home is back where we were born and brought up. And the difference is, it's a different way of doing... I'm not stood up every day, bobbing up and down, trying to catch the eye of the Speaker. The difference now is, it's a different type of access. So the access is that they closed the A&E at Chorley, it was never going to reopen and guess what, it's reopened. Why? Because I have access to Ministers, Secretaries of State, the Prime Minister... They come into my office, they come and see me. So it's a different way of using power without abusing it, in order to still benefit the constituents that elected me. Because they do still come first.

Matt:

I think we've established there's a good-natured rivalry, certainly between you both. But between the Houses, perhaps I could explore... Mr Speaker, you mentioned the election versus the appointment, and perhaps we can explore the constitutional tension there, and why it's important, perhaps, to have Houses appointed on different bases for the supremacy of the Commons. Do either one of you want to take that up?

Lord Speaker:

Actually, as a member of the House of Lords and now as Lord Speaker, I have always been conscious of the supremacy of the House of Commons. The way I describe it is, and Lindsay will come back against me, but the House of Commons does insufficient scrutiny. So what do we do? When the legislation comes along, it has the equivalent of a dirty face. And we scrub it up, and we make it nice and clean and we get the cheeks rosy and send it back to the House of Commons. And what happens sometimes with recalcitrant young people over there, they don't listen. So they throw it out for us. So we get it back again. And we say, "Look, wait a minute. This has been really naughty. We're really going to scrub up for you this time. And send it back to you." Which we'll do. And if they're really persistent on it, well, that's up to you, we've given you our best advice. You go forward. Because they are sovereign. That's very important. So what are we doing in the House of Lords? We are assisting the process of democracy.

Mr Speaker:

Very interesting.

[Laughter]

Mr Speaker:

I think... some good facts in there. Some interesting points. What I would say is, look, in the end, do I have people come into my constituency saying, "It's time to get rid of the Lords?" Doesn't happen. People actually don't complain. And people are not queuing at my door to say, "We've got to get rid of them." So there is no stampede of people wanting to change what we've got.

Mr Speaker:

What we've got does work. I acknowledge that completely. And you are right. It's about having time. I think sometimes government feel pressured to put a bill through so quickly, they don't think the consequence or where the pitfalls of bill. So it does need people to go through it. It does need people who've got time on their hands because they've nothing else to do, so therefore they can begin to look at where the problems are, or where it's not quite joined up. So of course it's a good role. And that does matter, scrutiny does matter. And having another set of eyes looking at it, refining and suggesting, I think is great. It would have to be done somewhere.

Mr Speaker:

So what we've got works, and I've got to say, wherever the political balance is, in fairness to the Lords, they do come up with good ideas, and do go against their own party as well. There is this belief, there is more independence to peers, because the whipping system - it's much harder trying to whip a peer that it is a Member of Parliament. Because ambition's not driven when you get to a certain age. You're not quite driven as the young members in the Commons are. So there's elder statesmen and people who come from the Commons or industry or whatever. And they scrutinize it. And they send it back. And if they have got it wrong, of course we'll ignore them. But of course, if we think they've got a point, we will look at it. And the House will take it on board. Of course, we don't trust them with money. That would be too much.

[Laughter]

Mr Speaker:

So in fairness, I think there is a role, and there is a need for a second scrutiny and also a fresh pair of eyes that's independent. And while there's no clamour to get rid of them, of course I'm always pleased to see my good friend the Lord Speaker.

Lord Speaker:

Can I maybe add to that? Because for a period of time, during Labour Government, I was in the Whips' Office, under the leadership of really good Chief Whips. For example, Nick Brown, Hilary Armstrong. When a bill comes forward, like say the time... you remember the Education Bill? Where we had endless issues with the House of Lords. You would get somebody looking at this bill and saying "Wait a minute, we're going to have problems with some backbenchers here in the House of Commons". For example, Hoyle and his mates will object to A, B, C, D or E. So we better watch that. But then when it goes to the House of Lords, "Wait a minute, the House of Lords will probably kick this out as a result of that. So watch that." And therefore, we had to take into consideration the interests of the House of Lords as well, because at the end of day, it shaped the legislation itself.

Lord Speaker:

Let me give you a more current example. When I entered the House of Lords, I was asked to go on the future of the Parliament Commissions for Banking Standards. It was chaired by Andrew Tyrie, my successor at the Treasury Committee. But it was an independent body. David Cameron, the Prime Minister, established it. The Archbishop of Canterbury, Nigel Lawson, Andrew Turnbull, the former head of Civil Service, and myself were on it from the House of Lords. We had members from the House of Commons as well. And it worked really, really well. Now, when we produced a report after a couple of years, there were aspects the government didn't want to implement, to accept. Andrew Tyrie wrote to myself and others, and said, "Look, the government don't want that. It's up to yourselves. Where you can have time to scrutinize this work. There's no guillotine on you. So it's not a limited time. Look at that for us, to see if we can get the change." And indeed, the combined efforts of Nigel Lawson, the Archbishop of Canterbury, Andrew Turnbull and myself, we got those changes.

Lord Speaker:

So that was of value in the House of Lords, to the work of the House of Commons as well. And that's the positive engagement. And Lindsay and I want to work on that aspect even more. That's really, really important, bringing both Houses together. And there's plenty of ideas we've got to do that.

Lord Speaker:

For example, when I did the review of committees in the House of Lords, it was suggested that there could be short-term appointments to the House of Commons select committees. Frank Field, who chaired the Welfare Committee at the time said we could do that. Sarah Wollaston, who chaired the Liaison Committee, said, "Look, why don't our respective Liaison Committees meet once a year as a result?" So there's opportunities for us to do things. And Lindsay and I are intent in showing that leadership so that we can get that change and ensuring that the legislation becomes more appropriate for good law.

Matt:

Speaking of change, you both presided over historic changes to the way Parliament was operated. Virtual hybrid meetings, virtual voting. So how does it feel to be back to normal? And has the experience of the last 18 months or so changed your opinions on how Parliament should operate in the future?

Mr Speaker:

It's a very good question. I think the one thing is that we did have maternity and paternity leave and there was proxy votes. I do believe there is a case for the extension for people with a critical illness or a serious illness. We should also allow for somebody to vote for them as well. I think that is so important, because the constituents deserve that somebody's actually voting on their behalf, so that's something I think we could look to extend.

Mr Speaker:

The other thing, what has proved extremely successful for us, is card readers. The fact that you can go with your pass, you touch a screen, and you've voted. The fact that you had to come past one teller to give your name for somebody to put a line through your name, is a bit antiquated and very, very slow. And the fact is that we had to wait for clerks who weren't expecting - junior clerks were rushing downstairs, trying to get a lift, all members are waiting to get out, because they want to get away.

Mr Speaker:

And, why don't we just have pass readers? Which we did, we brought them in, we got four, we can have eight pass readers, in each lobby. So people can vote, it's just quickly- we can get through votes like that. And that's the difference. The idea that you've got to wait 12 minutes to try and get a vote through, you can do it in 6, 7 minutes very easily with pass readers. So, if something's got to stay, we've kept the pass readers, it's so, so important.

Mr Speaker:

It's like committees. Is it wrong that select committees could meet on Teams? Because that's the way that you may be taking evidence, it's another way forward. And if somebody who should've been giving evidence and suffers an illness or something, you could still do it on Teams. You can take evidence that way. I think there's some good things that we can look back on. Obviously, I don't stand on other people's toes, because it's for others to look into this, but I definitely would say now straight away: the fact that you can use your pass to vote... Why didn't we do it sooner? That's the big question.

Lord Speaker:

Yes, I think the past year has shown the quality of personnel we have in the Parliament in terms of staff. Who would have thought that almost instantly, we had to go from a system of physical presence to one of remote, that we could do legislation remotely? That was fantastic achievement in a year. And I think the record shows the UK Parliament is amongst the top in the world for that change. So we have to recognize the good work there and certainly the work that the staff undertook.

Lord Speaker:

We've also got a group now - those with long-term illness and disabled. We've got the opportunity for some of them to participate virtually. And I've just come off the woolsack today after all the questions. And there were three people that I called virtually as a result of that. Most people in the chamber, but the opportunity for these people virtually... Who would have thought that we could've done that a year or so ago? So that's an advance.

Lord Speaker:

The committee work that we've done, the feedback I had from that, is that the remote working for committees worked extremely well. And they want to keep that as an option. Some committee members here, but others remote, and participating remotely. And what the committee structure has achieved is the opportunity for us to have a global footprint... If we want evidence from somebody in America or somebody in Africa, whatever, we can do that, virtually.

Lord Speaker:

So we've adapted our approach and our technology for that, and like the House of Commons, we have got the Peer Hub here as well, which we're still using for members. And it's a more efficient initiative that we've got, and that's very helpful. And I think the lasting thing for me is that the House of Lords with the more elderly population. You would think that we would've been slower rather than faster in adapting to change. But no, we've been like Willie Winkie. Get in there, and keep everybody awake on it.

Lord Speaker:

So keep in mind the technological progress that we have made and the changes that have been made in society. I keep thinking of 2007, which to me, was just round the corner, but in 2007, that was the year of the iPhone. And that's a new life that's been adopted since 2007. So the pace of change, technologically, is going to be great. And we have got to be alive to that. Because our primary interest is engaging with the public, and with society. That's our primary interest.

Matt:

My colleague and I in the library earlier were discussing the counterfactual of how Parliament would've responded 15 years ago without virtual technology, but perhaps that's for another day.

Matt:

Speaking of history, earlier this year, you both marked the 80th anniversary of the House of Lords lending its chamber to MPs after the House of Commons chamber was destroyed in the Second World War. Does that kind of history ever weigh on your shoulders?

Mr Speaker:

Who knows, you may want to repeat it. If something was to go wrong. It might be going to a new grand building somewhere else, and you might say, "If you've got a chamber, we've got one spare for you." But it shows the working relationship even there. People recognize, let's do the right thing. People have elected Members of Parliament. They need to sit and... we were very grateful as members all those years ago to be able to walk into this spectacular chamber, and to be able to use that. The fact that Attlee, Churchill had used that chamber, without even being a peer. It's something unique, isn't it, it's wonderful history, that was there.

Mr Speaker:

But in the end, it shows that we value democracy, both in this side of the House, and our side of the House, was that coming together to support the Commons who've lost their chamber. The Lords were willing to give theirs up in order for the Prime Minister to be able to address the House of Commons. I think it's unique. And I think that would still be the same today. And that's what's so important, it's that ability to be able to work together, to share things together for the best and the best we can give this country in representation.

Lord Speaker:

Yeah, absolutely. And Lindsay and I had a great day on that day celebrating it as a result. And I think I could say that the House of Lords is engaging, generous and modest. And why did I say modest? Because Churchill's greatest speeches, "Fight them on the beaches" or whatever, they were made from the red benches, Lindsay.

Mr Speaker:

I thought they were the BBC studio.

Lord Speaker:

Very few knew that. Because Churchill and the cabinet didn't want the Germans to know that had a detrimental effect on Parliament. Lindsay, you're welcome anytime.

Mr Speaker:

Brilliant. We'll be in next week.

[Laughter]

Matt:

To just finish off - a personal note of modesty. Apart from this podcast, favourite moments from your Speakerships so far? It's this podcast, isn't it?

Mr Speaker:

Of course, it's being here today with Lord McFall, it's the friendship that we built. I'll be quite honest. It's a great working relationship. And that's just one of the achievements I think we've managed to achieve together.

Lord Speaker:

Absolutely. And for me, on of my first day, welcoming the Queen to Parliament. That was a real privilege for myself. And today, I was up Elizabeth Tower, and saw Big Ben working. And if anything it's a shared ownership, it's Big Ben, and Lindsay and I look forward to the iconic chimes next year ringing out, and we'll celebrate together.

Mr Speaker:

Couldn't be better.

Matt:

Lord Speaker, Mr Speaker, thank you for joining us.

Mr Speaker:

Thanks for having me.

Lord Speaker:

It's a real pleasure. Thank you. And Lindsay, thanks for your visit today.

Mr Speaker:

Lord McFall, I wouldn't dare not come.