House of Lords Podcast: what comes after COP?

We spoke to two leading environmental campaigners in the House about their perceptions of the recent COP26 conference in Glasgow. We also discuss work in the Lords on the environment, and the balance between personal, government and international responsibilities in combatting climate change.

First up Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle, one of two Green Party members in the Lords, gives us her impressions of the conference, working as one of the smaller parties in the House, plus how it felt to win the first vote on a Green Party amendment in the Lords.

‘There were some important steps, the fact that fossil fuels and coal are actually mentioned in the COP declaration for the first time is important. But we really didn't make the progress that we needed to make in terms of climate finance.’ Baroness Bennett

We also discuss where the conversation on climate change should go next and the role of the Lords.

Read a transcript

‘There's a lack of what I would call systems thinking… even if every individual in the world tried to become an environmental saint. The way our systems work, the way things are arranged in our society, the way our economy is arranged, we still wouldn't meet anywhere near the carbon cuts we need.’ Baroness Bennett

We also hear from Baroness Parminter, Chair of the Lords Environment and Climate Change Committee. Baroness Parminter gives her perspective on COP26 and discussing with representatives from parliaments around the world on how to hold their governments to account.

‘We'll be making sure that the pledges that the government have now committed to are actually delivered on the ground. So there's that vital role of scrutiny. But also here in Parliament, we are the democratic body that makes sure that people's voices are heard. And that we are making sure that the questions that the people on the streets want to know are getting answered.’ Baroness Parminter

Baroness Parminter also tells us about upcoming work of the committee and how it felt to lead the charge on the plastic bag levy.

‘When I came in 10 years ago, I was determined to try and make a small contribution to helping make our planet a better place. And when we were in the coalition in 2010 to 2015, I introduced the Lib Dem's policy to support a levy on the plastic bags. And we managed to persuade our Conservative partners in the coalition to deliver that…

‘Over 60% of the action that needs to be taken is around behaviour change. What we eat, how we heat our homes, how we travel, what we buy and what we throw away. And so we need to be looking at how we mobilize people to change their behaviours.’ Baroness Parminter

• Find out more about Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle and follow on Twitter
• Find out more about Baroness Parminter and follow on Twitter
• Find out more about the Lords Environment and Climate Change Committee

TRANSCRIPT

Matt:

Welcome to the House of Lords Podcast.

Amy:

In this episode, we ask 'what comes after COP?' as we discuss the environment and the House of Lords.

Matt:

Welcome to our November episode, it's about two weeks now since COP26 finished in Glasgow. The two week UN Climate Conference saw delegates from 200 countries descend on Scotland for discussions and target setting to 'keep 1.5 alive', which was the government's rallying call around the conference.

Amy:

We're speaking to two members who were at the conference and play an active part in environmental issues here in the House of Lords. First up, we'll be speaking to Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle, one of two Green Party members in the House on how the conference went, what she hopes will come next and her work here in the Lords.

Matt:

We'll also be speaking to Baroness Parminter, a Liberal Democrat member of the House who also chairs the Lords Environment and Climate Change Committee.

Amy:

Other members who were also present at COP, including the Lord Speaker who gave a speech to the British Group of the Inter-Parliamentary Union at the conference. There he spoke about the work that Parliament will have to play to deliver action on climate change long after the conference has ended.

Matt:

And that's one of the topics we'll be discussing with both our guests this month. What role can or should Parliament and government play when it comes to the environment?

Amy:

Here's Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle for her thoughts.

Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle:

I'm Natalie Bennett, I became the second Green Party peer in the House of Lords two years ago. And if you really must, you can call me Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle.

Amy:

Natalie, thank you for joining us on the podcast. So first of all, what inspired you to get involved in environmental campaigning and the Green Party?

Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle:

Well, my first politics is feminism. I became a feminist at age five when I was told because you're a girl you're not allowed to have a bicycle. And although it probably was another 10 years before I knew the word, that's when I became a feminist. And that was my first politics and so I ended up going as a volunteer to the National Commission on Women's Affairs in Thailand, where I worked for two years. But I also did an agricultural science degree. And as I did that, it was really obvious to me that Australia wasn't really farming its soils, it was mining them, destroying them.

Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle:

And so the environmental side of things were always there, but also the feminism. And a real strong feeling that so many people in the world were denied the chance to develop to their full potential. And, really, Green political philosophy brought those two things together. 'Economic and environmental justice are indivisible' as the Green Party statement of principal says and that's where it came. And on the 1st of January 2006, I'd just stopped working nights and I thought I really should do something. I've got a bit of time now, my life is a bit more like everyone else's schedule. I looked around and joined the Green Party. And I never would've predicted where it would've led me.

Amy:

And you've been at the COP26 Conference in Glasgow over the last couple of weeks. Did the outcome match your expectations going into it?

Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle:

Well, I didn't go in with enormously high expectations. I mean, I was pointing out right from the beginning that this is a process and this is only a step in the process it was no kind of endpoint. And I guess, my top expectations would've been perhaps a 5.5 out of 10 mark. We got something like a three or a four out of 10. There were some important steps, the fact that fossil fuels and coal are actually mentioned in the COP declaration for the first time is important. But we really didn't make the progress that we needed to make in terms of climate finance.

Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle:

Particularly, we didn't get money for loss and damage, which is essentially reparations for the damage that's happening from extreme weather conditions caused by climate change by the poorest people in the world who didn't cause it. And did we keep 1.5 alive? Well, it's not actually dead but I would say that the 1.5 degrees, that's the absolute limit we must see of warming above pre-industrial levels. It's a patient sitting in a railway carriage on a siding going nowhere. The medical supplies are running out and next year in Sharm El-Sheikh, they're going to have to deliver amazingly, get that train up to enormous speed to give us any chance at 1.5.

Amy:

And Sir David Attenborough said before the conference that, 'if we don't act now, it'll be too late.' We've heard many similar warnings, is the opportunity passing us by, do you think?

Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle:

Well, it's not too late, but the problem is there is a total maximum of carbon dioxide and equivalent global warming gases that we can emit. And whatever we keep emitting at the levels we're now, the speed in which we're going to have to turn around becomes faster and faster. I mean, just to give an example, the richest 10%, if they keep emitting at current levels, we'll entirely consume the world's carbon budget by 2030. Now, every year that we keep doing that, then we're making it harder, and harder and harder to turn around.

Amy:

And we obviously hear a lot about the headline announcements. But what's actually going on at the conference, what's happening behind the scenes?

Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle:

Well, there's really two COPs and only one of them gets a great deal of coverage. The official COP is lots of people sitting in rooms till very late at night, arguing about words in brackets and changing words. Or as we saw very visibly on the conference floor on the last day, the changing wording we saw in coal from phase out to phase down, which was really important and very sad. But there's also what I call the shadow COP, the alternative COP. Or I did hear someone wonderfully describe them as the good COP and the bad COP. The alternative COP, the shadow COP, the good COP is huge numbers of indigenous people from around the world. And there was a very strong and powerful representative group from Brazil this time.

Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle:

Young people, campaigners, campaign groups, scientists who hold thousands and thousands of events, both in the main venue, but also in events all around Glasgow. And that's really where the energy, the innovation, the new ideas come from. I mean, the first COP I went to on the streets was Paris, first one I went to in the room was Marrakesh. And I've been to Bonn and Katowice since then. And what happens is you see, hear ideas being floated, being discussed in the alternative COP. Two years or three years go and then arrive on the floor of the main COP. So that's really where the ideas, the energy, the hope is to be found is in the alternative COP.

Amy:

So later today, after recording with us, you're going into a debate in the House on the impact of COP26. What are you hoping to come out of that?

Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle:

What my dream outcome of that would be, the government saying, 'yes, we acknowledge that we are the chair of COP for the next coming year. We acknowledge the need not just to push other countries as the Prime Minister's statement on this said, but the need to lead ourselves. And we're going to sign up to the Beyond Oil and Gas Alliance to say that we will stop new fossil fuel exploration in the UK. And make sure we keep within the 1.5 limits our share of those emissions from oil and gas. And we're going to put money into loss and damage.' We can now stop the dreaming and acknowledge. I'm not expecting that to happen.

Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle:

But I think we will have a really strong debate with voices from all sides of the House, including from the government benches, the backbenchers voices saying, 'you have to go further, you have to do more.' And really trying to push the government not to do a very glib boosterism, 'yes, it's all wonderful and COP achieved all the things we want.' To acknowledge that there is enormously long way to go and the UK has a special responsibility. And I'm not sure if we'll see any changing government rhetoric, I won't be holding my breath.

Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle:

But I think there will be a very clear a message from the House that for the UK and the world, there really needs to be an acknowledgement that COP really needs to go much further, much faster. And we need to do everything we can to support Egypt as chair next year, to get that to happen.

Amy:

We'll have to wait and see. It'll be an interesting one, I'm sure.

Matt:

Thinking about the House of Lords itself, the House of Commons - Parliament as a whole. Do you think we should be doing more on green issues on the environment, particularly with Restoration and Renewal coming up?

Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle:

Well, in terms of the fabric of the House, I think quite a reasonable amount is done. I think we could do a great deal in terms of the canteens and the foods that is served. And that is a practical example of how talking about economic and environmental justice fit in together, human health and environmental health fit together. We have an awful lot of ultra-processed foods, plastic wrapped foods. We've even seen since COVID an increase in the amount of plastic wrap. But what I would say we need to see in the House more than the physical framework is, we do see quite a lot of debates and discussion on things explicitly labelled as environmental.

Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle:

Where collectively the House has a long way to go is in understanding that everything is environmental. And we talk a lot about economic growth, I've just been in the debate on ARIA, the new development agency - scientific research agency. And in there it says, the aim of this is economic growth. And there's a real failure to understand that you can't have infinite growth on a finite planet. And that when we are talking about financial bills, any bill - bills about health - obviously, there's an element of trying to minimize the environmental impact of the health system.

Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle:

But also turning that round the other way is how do we make the environment healthier so that fewer people get ill? And so there's a lack of what I would call systems thinking. A lack of joined up thinking in the debates of the House. And I'm always concerned, not so much about individual behaviour but system change. So I'd say where we need more change is system change.

Matt:

You mentioned parliamentary debates there in the Lords and obviously the Environment Bill recently passed through Parliament. Changes pushed by the Lords included reducing single use items, courts' powers and more notably reducing the impact of sewage being discharged into rivers. So as a member of a smaller party in the Lords, you mentioned it's just yourself and Baroness Jones, how do you go about driving change on green issues? Is it a case of reaching out and making friends across the House?

Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle:

Obviously I do have friends and there're people you enjoy talking to. I would put it more in the nature of alliances because the practical reality is there are some people who you agree with on one or two things and you may disagree with on everything else. And the important thing is not to make that personal, but to actually really see who around this House can I work with on this particular issue? And friends, I would say are a sort of separate category. I mean, the sewage amendment was absolutely amazing in that we saw the Duke of Wellington, a title obviously with a very long history and hereditary peer, really at the forefront, but a huge community public campaign.

Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle:

I went to the March with SOS Whitstable, which was a group that had been founded only two months before. But was part of the biggest lobbying campaign I've ever seen in the Lords, around the Duke of Wellington's sewage amendment. And so what we see there is a sign of the weakness of our constitutional structure, in that the House of Commons is not representing the people. And it's the House of Lords and a hereditary peer who was at the forefront of doing that on that amendment.

Matt:

Does something like COP taking place help generate interest in environmental issues? Have you noticed more interest on the Lords benches?

Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle:

I think COP help focuses the nation's, the world's attention for two weeks and that's one of the really important things about it. But I think we are seeing a gradual acceptance from all sides of the House. I mean, I have never heard a climate change denier give a climate change denying speech in the House. And I know that's not the experience of Jenny Jones, who's been in the House five years longer or so than I have. The House really is not prepared to accept hearing that really out there, extreme view anymore.

Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle:

So I think there is a general acceptance that the environment really is an issue and a pressing issue. What's lacking is still the sense that it's not just an issue on its own, that it's part of the whole system. And it has to affect everything that we do.

Matt:

Speaking on structural change, and systems and the like. Where do you think the balance lies between the responsibility of the individual, subnational, national, international?

Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle:

Well, I always say that I'm not concerned about individual behaviour, even if every individual in the world tried to become an environmental saint. The way our systems work, the way things are arranged in our society, the way our economy is arranged, we still wouldn't meet anywhere near the carbon cuts we need. To make that practical, there's no point in telling people to leave the car at home and catch a bus if there is no bus. Or if the last bus leaves town at 5:00 and your job doesn't finish till 6:00. There's no point in that.

Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle:

So what I always say to people who have concerns about environmental issues is, by all means do what you can as an individual, but make sure you reserve some time and energy for working with other people to fight for the bus service that actually meets people's needs. Or to fight for the pedestrian crossing that makes people safer so they feel like they can walk to school. To make all of those changes that make environmentally friendly and socially responsible behaviour possible. So yesterday as we record, I was at St. Paul's School for Boys giving a talk about COP and it's aftermath.

Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle:

And the main message I had for them is this message I have for pretty well every audience, which is 'make politics what you do, not have done to you.' And so what we need is a society in which everyone is engaged, working together to build a society that meets people's needs and meets the planet's needs. And it's that working together that is what I mean by politics that is crucial. People who feel disempowered feel like they can't make a difference. That is something we really have to fight against.

Matt:

And finally, you mentioned earlier being in the House for the last two years, obviously it's probably been quite a strange two years. Do you have a favourite moment from your time so far?

Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle:

Very definitely. And this comes from the Environment Bill, and this was in the report stage of the Environment Bill, so the stage in which we actually have votes. And this was when I put down a very simple amendment that would've ensured we had a priority target for soils in the same way as it was already in the bill for water and air. And this was a vote that I pushed to the vote. There was a lot of pressure on me not to do that, but I held the line and I won the vote. And that was the first time a Green motion has ever been won in either House, which was a moment.

Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle:

I kind of knew what would happen next and that moment then was swept aside, the Commons threw the amendment out. And we weren't able to keep it after that. But nonetheless, it was a landmark and a very enjoyable moment. And I really appreciate particularly the peers and there were a number of Tory peers who broke the whip to vote with me. And that does demonstrate something about the House of Lords is there is some real independent mindedness, independent spirit. And so I appreciate that and enjoyed that. And I'm hoping for many more.

Matt:

Can you just help us understand what the value perhaps longer-term is of winning a vote now and perhaps winning the argument longer-term?

Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle:

Well, what happened with that is the government actually made concessions in terms of saying it was going to do more things about soils. So that's a demonstration of the way in which the Lords particularly works, in that you may not get 100% of what you want but you might get 50 or 60% of what you want. And even if you don't get an immediate concession from the government, this is all a long-term game of getting things on the agenda. I am at the very start. The Green Party has been talking about the climate emergency for a very long time

Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle:

and now we've got everyone to accept that it is here, that you can't have infinite growth on the finite planet is one of my projects to get the entire House, the country to accept that. At the moment I'm out there saying this radical thing. And the usual patterns is, in about 10 years time, everyone will be agreeing with us. But given the state of the world, we can't afford to wait that 10 years. So I'm trying see what I can do to speed this process up.

Matt:

And perhaps an additional cheeky question here. Obviously, you are notably a pro-reform member of the House. Has your view changed at all on that by being such an active member?

Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle:

Not at all. The first thing I did after I made my maiden speech was to trot up to the bill office with my House of Lords Elections and Other Reforms Bill in my hand. And we have an entirely outdated broken constitution that's dysfunctional, not fit for the modern world. Reforming the House of Lords is part of that. One of the interesting things is that if you were to take reform of the House of Lords as a stand-alone and let the House of Lords, have a fully elected House of Lords through proportional representation, so that it actually reflected the views of the people and everyone's vote counted,

Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle:

you would immediately have an enormous constitutional crisis because it would be far more democratic than the Commons is. So the only way forward for the UK, as people in 2016 voted to 'take back control', the only way forward for the UK is to get a modern functional constitution. I'd like to see a people's constitutional convention. So a purely democratic structure to actually draw up the pattern for a new constitution - to create a modern functional constitution. I think one of the things we could do is leave all of this here as a museum and build a nice modern working office probably in Birmingham.

Matt:

Natalie, Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle, thank you for joining us today.

Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle:

Matt and Amy, it's been lovely. Thank you very much.

Matt:

And next up, here is Baroness Parminter on COP and the Lords Environment and Climate Change Committee.

Baroness Parminter:

Hello I'm Kate Parminter, Baroness Parminter. And I'm the chair of the House of Lords Select Committee on the Environment and Climate Change.

Matt:

Can we start with COP26, you mentioned in an interview last weekend that 'incremental progress has been achieved but not in line with the urgency that we require.' How can we step in to fill the gap there as a country?

Baroness Parminter:

Well, clearly the UK holds the chairmanship of the UNFCCC, United Nations Framework Convention on Climate Change, snappy title, for the whole of the next year. So we've got a really pivotal opportunity to show leadership and to double down on diplomacy to get some of the countries that haven't yet brought forward sufficient pledges to help the world get to 1.5. So it's a really big opportunity for the UK. And I think in the run up to COP26, certainly our committee were concerned that there had been occasions with issues such as the cutting of overseas aid, that we'd lost some of the trust with other global players.

Baroness Parminter:

So we need to make sure that the UK uses this opportunity well, take some really bold steps, perhaps looking at things like re-establishing the 0.7% aid budget to help developing countries develop in a way that meets their social ambitions alongside their climate ambitions. And also we need the UK to show that it's clearly meeting its own commitments and taking some further bold steps. And indeed I heard the chairman of the Climate Change Committee, Lord Deben over the last couple of days saying that he would like to see the UK government joining the new Beyond Oil and Gas Alliance, which has been set up by Costa Rica and Denmark in order to shift faster away from fossil fuels.

Baroness Parminter:

It's those sort of steps of global leadership that I think will help the UK encourage other climate laggards to bring us nearer to the 1.5 that we know we've got to get to.

Matt:

Can I ask you about what your opinion is on the role of a Parliament in driving change in the environmental outlook? The Lord Speaker recently gave a speech where he said essentially, that it is Parliament, where the real action will take place following COP. And you yourself spoke at panel during COP on the role of parliaments in climate change. So what are your thoughts on parliaments' role in all of this?

Baroness Parminter:

Yeah, I felt really privileged at COP26 to be on a panel with other parliamentarians both from the UK and around the world. Talking about how we are going to keep our national parliaments, keep their feet to the fire in these critical decade if we're going to meet these targets. Speaking with parliamentarians from Uganda, from Indonesia and Pakistan, as well as other countries chipping in with how they're stepping up to the plate to keep their national governments feet to the fire. And here in the UK, what we'll be doing is we will be seeking evidence from government departments, we'll be calling in ministers.

Baroness Parminter:

We'll be making sure that the pledges that the government have now committed to are actually delivered on the ground. So there's that vital role of scrutiny. But also here in Parliament, we are the democratic body that makes sure that people's voices are heard. And that we are making sure that the questions that the people on the streets want to know are getting answered. And so we take that very seriously on our committee. And will we be seeking to take some new initiatives in order to ensure that people's voices are heard in corridors of power.

Matt:

It just so happens that there is a debate on COP26 later in the House, which you're speaking in. What do you see the role of these debates are and what sort of outcomes do you hope to see from that debate?

Baroness Parminter:

I think these debates are really important. I mean, it's fantastic to see just how many peers have signed up for this debate. I mean, clearly COP26 is an issue which concerns a lot of peers. There's a separate group called Peers for the Planet, which brings together people who are concerned about the biodiversity crisis and the climate crisis that we face. And that I think is a fantastic initiative. And I'm sure we're getting lots of perspectives from people with all the experiences that they have. In the House, we are privileged to have farmers, business people, the President of the Royal Geographical Society, campaigners like myself.

Baroness Parminter:

We will all have our perspectives on how we need to tackle that issue. They bring together that expertise and they represent those views and make sure that the government in the form of the minister who is responding to the debate, hear that. And I think they're really important debates. And I know from what people say, when they hear our debates, that they feel that they're really informative. And that the views that they have about climate change are finding expression in the mother of parliaments.

Amy:

I was just wondering what drove you at first to get involved in environmental issues and campaigning?

Baroness Parminter:

Well, I didn't have a sort of a road to Damascus moment. But I grew up in a Baptist household where we believed very much that we were stewards of God's earth. And so I suppose, I was always mindful of that in the back of my mind and that's sort of a value that I hold here. But when I left university, I was very fortunate to have some jobs which got me involved, to understand far more about the global food system. And then I went on to do campaigning jobs at the RSPCA and the CPRE. And I could see what was happening to our environment and the impacts not just on us as a species, but on other species.

Baroness Parminter:

And so, while I was there doing those campaigning jobs, on campaigning against hunting and for better changes in our planning system, I really got to understand what we were doing to our world. And so those are the processes that have got me to where I am today in the House of Lords. And when I came in 10 years ago, I was determined to try and make a small contribution to helping make our planet a better place. And when we were in the coalition in 2010 to 2015, I introduced the Lib Dem's policy to support a levy on the plastic bags. And we managed to persuade our Conservative partners in the coalition to deliver that.

Baroness Parminter:

And it was a very small thing in one way, a levy on a plastic bag. I mean, it's not going to solve the climate crisis, but it was a really important way of doing something which people out on the street suddenly understood I can do something that is actually making a difference. So I thought it was a really important way of changing people's behavior to make them understand the links between what they were doing and the choices they were making in their lives. And how they could help meet the climate crisis that we're facing.

Baroness Parminter:

So I've been really privileged in my life to have a number of opportunities to try and make a small difference. It's a very small difference. In this place, one of the things you find in the House of Lords is people have done some fantastic things, just amazing things that have changed the world. But I just try and find in every situation I'm in well how can I do a small thing to make a contribution to tackling the climate and biodiversity crisis we face.

Amy:

But I suppose it goes back to what you were saying earlier about that behavioural change. So although as you said, with the plastic bags that may be a small thing. It does kick people's minds off to think about small choices that they can make every day.

Baroness Parminter:

It does. And I really think in terms of just thinking about its place in the UK's behavioural change on climate, it's been really pivotal. There aren't many climate issues that people can talk about really very easily and that's something that they can do. They can see how it makes a change and it opens up a conversation with them about the role of waste, the role of plastic pollution.

Baroness Parminter:

And a wider conversation about when you're going to buy in a supermarket, what are the impacts? Where are these things bought from? What are the climate impacts? Are we flying stuff in from halfway around the world, is that really sustainable? Should we be buying things locally? So I think yes, it's a small thing, but it has had a really valuable opportunity to change the conversation.

Amy:

And as you said, you chair the Lords Environment and Climate Change Committee, and you recently wrote to the government to express concerns on cross-government action on climate change policy. What do you think are the biggest risks here?

Baroness Parminter:

Yes, our committee wrote to Alok Sharma on the eve of COP26. I think there's a couple of big challenges. As I've said, we've got to ensure that the government do meet their climate pledges. And we're not on track at the moment to meet our carbon budgets for the mid-2020s. And when we analysed the evidence that we'd received from the nine committees who gave evidence to us and indeed the ministers who came before us, it was quite clear that a number of departments aren't sufficiently embedding climate change into their policy making process.

Baroness Parminter:

And what we're finding is perverse decisions whereby we have a government heat and building strategy, which doesn't have anything in any new policies on insulating homes. And yet we know that homes are responsible for just under 20% of all the UK greenhouse gas emissions. And we have an international trade department who aren't using every lever at their disposal to ensure that trade policy, and we know that that trade deals are a really strong way of bringing climate laggards towards their climate goals, we have a trade deparmnet, which aren't taking every opportunity - and a good example of that was the recent trade deal with Australia.

Baroness Parminter:

So we're seeing perverse decisions, including the decision on cutting Air Passenger Duty for domestic flights. Perverse decisions, which are actually going to stop the government meeting their climate target. So we think there's a very real need for better means to ensure that departments embed climate policy in their decision making processes. It's very unclear to us that the government's own mechanisms for holding departments to account is working. There's insufficient transparency around the two cabinet committees, which do that job. And we specifically asked them, are those cabinet committees going to be continuing after COP26?

Baroness Parminter:

They were set up in the run up to COP26 and, if they are, there is a real need for more transparency around how departments are being kept to ensure that climate change objectives are in their departmental goals. And the other area, I think where our committee was very concerned, is we've got to work really fast to bring down our greenhouse gas emissions. We've got to do it within the next decade, which means we don't have time to sit around and think about these things. We've got to start acting now.

Baroness Parminter:

And we were not convinced that there are the sufficient numbers of staff or the sufficient level of analytical expertise in departments to do that job of embedding climate policy in departmental decision making. In the net zero strategy, there was reference to training for civil servants, but it was unclear to us that it is sufficient to the challenge that we face. So we think there's a challenge around embedding climate change into departmental decision making. And there's a challenge about the necessary resources within government to do it.

Amy:

And what's the committee currently investigating?

Baroness Parminter:

Well, we've launched a new committee this week following on from COP. We want to build on the clear excitement I think there is for people to really start tackling the climate change issue. And we want to look at the whole issue of how we mobilize behavior change for climate and environmental goals. In the net zero strategy and indeed at COP26, there was a lot talked about new technology and innovation, and how that's going to help us reach our climate goals. But the Climate Change Committee have made it absolutely clear in their view to meet our climate pledges in the UK.

Baroness Parminter:

Over 60% of the action that needs to be taken is around behaviour change. What we eat, how we heat our homes, how we travel, what we buy and what we throw away. And so we need to be looking at how we mobilize people to change their behaviours. And in the net zero strategy launched before COP26, the government said that they would work within the grain of consumer choice. As if somehow consumer choice was some sort of neutral stance and they didn't have influences upon it both from the market, and indeed from people's own communities and friendship groups.

Baroness Parminter:

So we're going to be taking advice from academics both within the UK and more broadly of where initiatives have been undertaken that actually have shifted the dialogue on behaviour change. Because we think it's really critical that we get both the academic evidence and concrete examples of where behaviour change has been shifted so that we can hopefully influence the thinking of the government in this critical area.

Amy:

And I think you see more and more campaigning particularly, on climate issues from young people. And the committee is also seeking to bring some young people in to work with you to help set its future agenda. What brought about the decision to do that?

Baroness Parminter:

I absolutely agree with you that we're seeing much stronger, and it's fantastic to see young people campaigning and they would be because it's about their future. And certainly when I was in COP26, I took the opportunity to go out and join the Climate Justice march, where it was fantastic to see young children with placards painted on the back of cereal boxes. They feel really passionately about this and as I say, it's right that they feel strongly. And it's also right, that we listen to those voices not just at COP26 but more regularly.

Baroness Parminter:

And that's why I was really pleased when our committee agreed to set up what I think is a pivotal and also a pioneering new approach in Parliament to bring together schools to join us in a youth engagement program, so that they can work with us and advise us on the issues that we ought to be asking government ministers, what we ought to be looking at in our reports. We think it's really important to hear their voice. And so we want to work with schools across the UK, both in England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland. As I say, to bring their voices into the corridors of power.

Baroness Parminter:

I'm really hopeful that not only will it allow their voices to be heard but it also might re-establish some of their trust in democracy. Because I think we're in a really difficult phase where, if governments around the world don't react to the clear demand for more action on climate change, then there's going to be a real disjoint between our citizens and the parliaments themselves. And I think that's really worrying and I'm hoping that initiatives like this will just play a small part but nevertheless an important part in trying to re-establish those bonds of trust.

Amy:

Yeah, absolutely. It'sa really interesting and, as you say, pioneering initiative, so it'd be really interesting to see how it plays out. Just going back to COP, you recently said that there's a year for countries to improve on their commitments made at the conference. Are you hopeful for a better outcome by the time the countries meet again in Egypt next year?

Baroness Parminter:

Well I'm a Liberal Democrat, so I have to be hopeful - otherwise it's hard to be one sometimes. But I think we have to be optimistic. And I am optimistic that if parliaments and state actors play their part in this critical year, then by the time we get to Cairo we can have brought it closer to this 1.5 critical goal that we need to do. Because otherwise, the situation for our world is just devastating. We've already seen 2020 was the hottest year on record, we've seen increasing floods, Arctic melts, droughts. We've seen them here in the UK and in Europe but I mean, with the people on the front line in the Pacific.

Baroness Parminter:

I mean, it was so powerful at COP26, listening to people's testament saying, "Look, we're sitting here talking, but there are people being flood today." And if we don't get to 1.5, then it is going to be whole island states, whole communities who will have their lives, not just disrupted but ended. And will face the cataclysmic situation of climate migrants, which with was a whole new level of concern for us all. So I'm hopeful because I believe we are one world and I believe in the power of democracies to come together.

Baroness Parminter:

And so I think state actors need to take this opportunity in this year very seriously. But it's not just about state actors, it's also about us. And I think all of us individually have to spend this year thinking about what we can do in our own small ways to help turn the situation around so that we can make sure that the 1.5 goal gets within our reach by this time next year.

Amy:

Kate, Baroness Parminter, thank you so much for joining us today.

Baroness Parminter:

Pleasure to be here.

Amy:

And that's it for this episode of the podcast. We'll be back next month with more news and views from the House of Lords.

Matt:

In the meantime, don't forget to subscribe and leave a review wherever you get your podcasts, and encourage us to do more of what you want to hear.