Lord Speaker's Corner: Baroness Benjamin
15 September 2023
Hear from broadcaster and campaigner, Floella Benjamin, in the latest episode of Lord Speaker's Corner.
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In this episode
Baroness Benjamin explains that it was while presenting TV’s Play School in the 1970s and 1980s that she first realised that 'children didn't have a voice… People didn't take what's going to happen to children into consideration enough.' She has gone on to play a significant role advocating for children's rights.
In this extensive interview, Baroness Benjamin also shares how she overcame discrimination in many forms, from name-calling in the playground to being told there were certain roles non-white actors could not portray on screen. She later discusses the importance of the official commemoration of the 75th anniversary of the arrival of the Windrush Generation.
Baroness Benjamin also reflects on being recognised by Queen Elizabeth II in her final honours list and being asked to carry the Sceptre with Dove in the coronation of King Charles III earlier this year.
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Lord Speaker:
Baroness Benjamin, welcome to Lord Speaker's Corner. So, Flo-
Baroness Benjamin:
Yes.
Lord Speaker:
... the floor is yours.
Baroness Benjamin:
My mum always used to call me Flo. My family always called me Flo. So I'm in good company if you call me Flo.
Lord Speaker:
Good. As a 10-year-old, 1960, you landed in Kent after your parents came to Britain and you followed three years later. You didn't have a good experience with your foster parents. And when you landed here, you didn't have a good experience with racism. So a sort of lonely, shy, young person coming to Britain. Years later you find yourself star of stage and screen, Order of Merit, and a peer. How did this happen? What magic rub was it?
Baroness Benjamin:
I'm now standing on the summit of life's mountain, looking at the valley of experiences that I have. And I think everything that's happened to me from the time I was born who led me to the person I am today. I grew up in Trinidad. I was born in 1949, so I'm 74 years old coming up to. And, my first seven years, I knew I was loved. My first eight years of life, I knew I was loved because every day my mom and dad told me how much they loved me. And every child is born with over 84 billion brain cells with no connections. By the time they're 18 months, the connections are starting: love, smell, feel, what we feed them, what we teach them, the attachments, how we love them. By the time they're seven, clunk, they are made. So I was very lucky for those first seven years of my life being brought up in Trinidad knowing that I was somebody.
So when my family all, kind of, fell apart because my dad came to Britain when I was seven, my mom left us when I was eight to come to Britain having to stay with some really awful foster parents, I realised that, because I was loved, I could cope. And that's partly one of the reasons why I work so much with children's charity because I know that children from a very early age have to feel loved because childhood lasts a lifetime and that love could take you through life. And anything that you have to cope with, you'll be able to face any adversity. So when I was left with those awful foster parents, when I think about it now it makes me shiver because my mum leaving me was one of the most traumatic experiences of my life. But it was only for 15 months. And when I came to Britain, I came here feeling I was British.
Because I stood in the playground being told I was part of the motherland. I sang God Save The Queen. I was told Britain loved me and I was all part of it. Learned all about their history, all about their heroes. Nothing about my ancestors and my history. But at the time it didn't matter because I had that sense of pride. And when I came here to be told to go back where you come from and people didn't know who I was and there were signs saying, 'No Irish, no dogs, no coloureds.' And have to deal with this traumatic experience of being bullied at school, being spat upon, not knowing who was going to hate you when you walked the streets as a 10, 12, 13, 14-year-old, I was very angry. And so I used to fight every day until I was 14 when I got my spiritual moment.
And I realised I heard this voice and it said, 'Floella, you can't change the colour of your skin. And if other people have a problem with the colour of your skin, it's their problem, not yours.' That's when I started to stop fighting and fight with my brain. And that's the day I learned to smile. Because winners smile. And I was going to be a winner. And my smile has been my armour. And I've helped millions of people who say to me, 'When I see you smile, I know everything's going to be all right.' So I feel, because of all my experiences as a child, because of everything I've gone through, I feel empowered to do anything and not to be afraid and to know that I can face any adversity and not hate anybody for what they've done for me.
Lord Speaker:
But for many young people that would've knocked them sideways, and we know particularly with the issue of mental health now and increasingly that a lot of the problems start at childhood. Did you have an inbuilt resilience that overcame that?
Baroness Benjamin:
Well, not so much inbuilt, I suppose it was built into me because of my mum. Because every day she told us that she loved us. And every day she said, 'Everything happens for a reason. Every disappointment is an appointment with something better.' So when you have those kind of positive things being in into your system, installed in you, it's like a database, a foundation that you have. And that's why I go into schools. I do a school visit almost every week and I talk about resilience. I tell children about my experiences. I try and get them to shout. I am worthy, I am worthy, I am worthy. To love themselves and to feel appreciated. Because if you love yourself, you know that if anybody else doesn't love you, like that spiritual moment I had telling me, it's other people's problems, not yours. You don't take it on. And I think that's what we've got to share with children. We've got to show them that they're loved no matter who they are. Because when I did my television program Play School 47 years ago, I used to pour love into everything I did.
And so many people write me today and say, 'Floella, when I was little, I lived in a children's home and nobody loved me but you. The way you used to smile at me and say, 'Hello.'' 'Floella, when I was little I was sexually abused, but I knew someone loved me. So I used to cling onto you when I went through my traumatic moments in my life.' So I try and instil that love and that, kind of, feeling of resilience into children because if you get them as young as possible, the early years, the early stages of their life, because as I said, childhood last a lifetime, if you can get that into them, it'll help them. And so I feel a lot of children today are going through trauma, especially after COVID. So I feel I've got an even stronger mission in life to get as many children as possible, to embrace them and to tell them I love them and to get other people to show that love.
Because the way you speak, the policies that you make, you see, that's why for 20 years I campaigned to get a minister for children. Because on Play School I realised that children didn't have a voice. People didn't take what's going to happen to children into consideration enough. So I started campaigning for Minister for Children, a cabinet level Minister for Children. First of all, I was told no, this was back in 1983, no. And I was told, 'good idea, we haven't got the money.' And it was Tony Blair, Gordon Brown and David Blunkett, when the Labour Party came in 1997 who said, 'This is a brilliant idea.' And by 2003 we had a cabinet level minister for children. Because I feel when you are in power, the policy that you make directly and indirectly affects children. And I really believe that we should start having a Cabinet-level minister for children once again, because so many policies have been made and taken into account is not considering children enough.
And I want to see somebody sitting at the Cabinet-level table saying, 'How is this affecting society, our children, because they are the future?' And if you don't consider them enough, we've got a broken future. We're having broken children who are suffering as you quite rightly say, from depression, anxiety, self-harm, suicide, you name it. All the things that they shouldn't be having to face because of the kind of society that we've created for them. And we've got to fix it.
Lord Speaker:
I left school about the same time as you, same age, but had a bit of confusion about where I was going. And I lived in a fog for a while, and you seemed to have a path planned out. Am I correct? You know, went into showbiz, your father was a saxophonist, you played instruments, you went on the stage, you did the arts and culture. So you seemed to embrace the whole world.
Baroness Benjamin:
I've never had a plan. That's the beauty of my life. I never know what's going to happen. But when an opportunity arises, I grasp the opportunity because, even if I can't do something, I learn how to do it. I'm one of these people who like to win. That's when I say winners smile, that's why I'm always smiling because I intend to win no matter how long it takes. And I wanted to be a teacher in fact. But I had to leave school at 16 and I didn't go to university. I went to what I called University of Life and studied common sense and empathy. And I went to work in a bank. I wanted to be the first black woman bank manager. I thought that will suit me. But back in 1966, that was mission impossible. Because Black people were not allowed to touch the money, to meet the customers, you had to work behind the scenes.
So I worked in the chief accountant's office and I realised after three years in the bank, it was mission impossible. I wasn't ever going to become a bank manager. And I saw an advert in a newspaper, the Evening News, not the Evening Standard, the Evening News. And it said, 'Singers and dancers wanted for show touring the country.' And I thought, 'Well I can sing and I can dance. I'm going to go for this audition.' And I went for the audition and lo and behold, I got it. I could sing because my dad was a jazz musician and I used to sing on the weekends with him. But I got this job and that's how I started in the theatre. The show was Hair, and I told them, 'I want 30 pounds a week, and I'm not taking my clothes off.'
[Laughter]
I'm 19. And there I am telling them what I'm going to do and what I'm not going to do. Because you see, my mother always said, 'Let people know what your standards are. Act with integrity and with honesty and be bold.' If you don't want to do something, say, 'No.' And so I ended up doing this show which led from one production in the theatre to another. And it was just pure charmed luck, whatever you want to call it. But what I did, I always gave it my best. I remember the first show I was in, I had two words to say, 'Oy vey.' And I said it with such panache, such kind of encouragement, such confidence, that somebody, a critic said, 'There was a young girl in the show who said, 'Oy vey,' I don't know who she is, but she's going to be a star.' Because you see, I was never jealous of the star. I felt I was the star.
I felt that this was my purpose in life and everything I've done, I've done it with a sense of purpose, a sense of confidence, and that's something I teach children as well. I say 'when you walk in, confidence; when you approach anything, confidence; if you don't know it, you go and learn it.' And so if you're confident, other people feel confident in your presence.
Lord Speaker:
In the seventies though, in that environment, you were told that for Blacks and Asians, that it was not appropriate for them to be portrayed as professional people, to act as professional people.
Baroness Benjamin:
That's right.
Lord Speaker:
That seemed a huge barrier. Tell us how you jumped over that one.
Baroness Benjamin:
Well yes, because I did a show called Within These Walls with Googie Withers and I blagged my way into getting that. I'd never done any television, but I said I did. And the producer and the director believed me. So I got the job and I was sitting with the producer during lunch and I said, 'Why can't Black and Asian and Chinese people play professional roles?' And they said to me, 'Well that's not realistic.' What? I mean all my family, I'm one of six children and all my brothers and sisters, we’re all professional people. One's an architect, one's a computer analyst, my sister is a pianist. And so we've all done incredible things, but yet they were telling me that wasn't possible. And that's when I started fighting to get diversity on the screen. That was 1974. That's how long I've been fighting for diversity and inclusion. I'm determined to do so.
And I remember going for a part it said for a nurse and I went, it was a place called Maybury. And they gave me the script to read the part for the nurse. And I said, 'Now come on. Why is it that Black people always have to play nurses and prostitutes and bus drivers? Why can't we play something more significant?' And I looked down the cast list and I said, 'Hm, that's what I want to play. Let me read it for you.' And I read the part of Kayleen who was a schizophrenic and it was a really meaty, meaty role that showed the depth of a character. And I read it for them. And the producer, her name was Ruth Boswell, she cried and she said, 'This part is for you. Because parts used to say, 'Black,' and unless it said Black next to it, then you weren't considered.
But this role wasn't meant to be for a Black person, but I showed it could be. And I think because I showed that kind of confidence and wasn't afraid to say, 'This isn't right.' Because I remember on Play School, when I read the stories on Play School, the illustrations on the screen were all of White children. And I said to the producer one day, 'Cynthia, darling, I'm reading this story sometimes in my Caribbean accent. Can't we have some Black and Asian and Chinese faces.' And she said something to me, quite interesting. She said, 'Oh, we hadn't noticed.' That's when I realised my job in life was to get people to notice what is missing. And I take credit for children's programs being so diverse because I was brave enough. I wasn't just thinking of myself. I was brave and confident enough to tell the producers in a very kind of a gentle way, in a way of opening their minds and their eyes and their perspective of life in a way that they could look good as well.
Children's programs and producers, they're all claiming how great they are. But it took somebody like me to point out what was missing. And I'm never afraid wherever I go to point out to people saying this isn't quite right.
Lord Speaker:
And you were successful in ensuring that they made UK-made productions.
Baroness Benjamin:
That's right. That's right. And I feel it was an opportunity to just then become my own production company, making thousands of children's programs that are shown all over the world now. And to then show the diversity of our country so that children can see themselves and grow up. Because when you see yourself, you know belong, and so many people in the cultural and the creative industry say to me, 'Because of you, Floella, because of what you've done, we are doing what we're doing today. We're standing on your shoulders because you paved the way.' And I've never been afraid to talk to broadcasters to show them, to sit down and say, 'It's going to make your company and your productions look better if you embrace the diversity of our country and do it in a way where people realise that they hadn't noticed.' And it's up to me to make them notice.
I sat on the Stamp Advisory Committee for the Royal Mail, and when I was there, they had some stamps showing nativity plays and all the children were White children. And I said to the committee, 'My heart is broken, because you're telling me the children, my children and the children I represent in this country that stamps and nativity and Christmas is not part of their world, because there are no Black and Asian faces here. Can't we change it?' And again, they said to me, 'We hadn't noticed.' So when I was asked to unveil the Windrush stamps just recently to celebrate the 75th anniversary of Windrush, I felt so overjoyed because everything that I had worked for all these years, because I told them that back in the eighties and since then they changed the criteria to embrace the society that we're living in and to make sure that we have diversity on our stamps.
Because when you see a stamp, if you look back from the time I was there, you never saw any Black or Asian or Chinese people on their stamps. After I'd been there, you could suddenly see them showing Black angels. We're showing things that represented the whole of our society to be holistic about our world. And I feel as somebody who is not afraid to speak out in the public eye, especially, not do it in a shouting way or an accusing way, but in a way that is all embracing and to get people to see what's missing and to make sure that they can fix it.
Lord Speaker:
And the Windrush: Portraits, TV program, which the King asked you to undertake as chair of that Windrush, I watched that myself and it was actually very touching and engaging as a result of that.
Baroness Benjamin:
Yeah. Well actually that started because I was asked by Theresa May because of the Windrush Scandal. I was asked-
Lord Speaker:
You've called it the Home Office Scandal-
Baroness Benjamin:
Sorry?
Lord Speaker:
Not the Windrush scandal, is that right?
Baroness Benjamin:
Yes. I was asked by Theresa May. That is correct. Because in my speech I said, 'It shouldn't be the Windrush Scandal, it should be the Home Office Scandal.' You know, it's not the Windrush people who did this. It's the Home Office that caused it. And in 2018 she asked me to chair the Windrush Commemoration Committee and she wanted to have a Windrush monument put out somewhere in Central London to show the appreciation the country had for the Windrush people who came here to rebuild Britain after the Second World War. And I felt quite privileged and honoured to be able to do something like that because I wanted the country not to just think of the scandal for the Windrush, the Windrush experience, not to be confined and be thought of as a scandal and not to be the way that everybody thinks of Windrush, think of scandal.
I wanted them to think of it as what the people have offered this country. We mustn't be defined by this scandal. We must be defined by the contribution that the Windrush people from the Caribbean have brought to this country. And so it took me four tough years. I had Brexit to deal with and then I had COVID. I had minister after minister to deal with, but I was determined that it was going to happen. And it was unveiled on the 22nd of June, Windrush Day, which we got because of the Home Office Scandal. We got Windrush Day and it was unveiled at Waterloo Station.
Lord Speaker:
And you landed at Waterloo Station Platform 19 as a 10-year-old. So was that the reason for the site?
Baroness Benjamin:
Exactly, exactly. This 10-year-old Floella coming-
Lord Speaker:
So you never forget anything.
Baroness Benjamin:
Never. Just with my grip, my suitcase, coming off, you know, Waterloo Station, looking up at this place, a cathedral like building, never realizing that 62 years later I'd be in charge of putting up the Windrush Monument, just a few yards away from Platform 19. That's why I tell children, 'Never give up. Always have hope in your heart. You never know what life will lead, where it'll lead you.' And so putting up this monument, when I had Alfred Gardner and John Richards, the last two surviving Windrush passengers on the Windrush who came in 1948, they unveiled the monument and Prince William and his wife Kate, they came and was present as well with the Windrush generation all there celebrating. I thought it's been four tough years. I've finished, I got a phone call from the then Prince Charles' office - the now King - Prince Charles saying that he'd like me to chair the Windrush Portrait Committee because he has this idea of commissioning 10 portraits for Windrush elders again to celebrate the contribution and to recognise the contribution the Caribbean people have made to this country.
So how can I say no? I said, 'Yes, of course.' And I formed a little committee and we had the criteria where all the Windrush elders, I call them 'Windrush nobility', had to be over the age of 90. 90 and over. And we found 18 altogether. And we had a short list just in case anything happened. In fact, we lost four of them. But we had a reserve list that we could get whoever to be replaced. And the portraits were magnificent. I mean they were unveiled at Buckingham Palace. And we had-
Lord Speaker:
- I think the touching thing about that for me was that it wasn't just those who sat for it, but it was an entire family that came along. And it was a real sort of touching societal occasion.
Baroness Benjamin:
Well, it was and it was very moving. Because many of the Windrush elders who were painted cried and they said, 'We never dreamt anything like this could happen. We never dreamt that we would walk into Buckingham Palace' because it's something that was so far removed from them. The same thing when people go to the Windrush monument, grown men cry because they talk about the trauma, the left behind trauma that they had. When they see the monument, it represents them. And I think with the Windrush Portraits, it was the same thing. Suddenly the King is shaking your hand, celebrating not just you but your family, your children, your grandchildren, your great-grandchildren thanking you for all you've done. Because I think up until recently, Caribbean people have been silent about the stories, the traumas, the deep traumas that they've carried, the resentment that they've had to face, you know, the anger and the hostility and the rejection.
So they've kept quiet about all of that. Because in the past, if you talked about it, people say, 'Ah, what you talking about? You got a chip on your shoulder. Come on.'
Lord Speaker:
Yeah, yeah.
Baroness Benjamin:
Now suddenly people want to hear the story, and the elders suddenly they could tell their stories. And it was really incredible to see the resilience that they had and knowing that it wasn't their fault. And the only way to survive was to have that pride and that dignity and that self belief that it was going to get better. And the King understood all of that because I think he had empathy with each and every one of the sitters. Because when you think about it, people have often criticised him or rejected him or haven't believed in what he's talking about, the environment, conservation, architecture, whatever it is, he's never been afraid to speak out and knowing people won't actually embrace what you're saying.
So I think that's one of the reasons why he had such empathy. He wasn't just doing it just to think, 'Well, I'm doing something that I think will make me look good.' He did the same thing with the Holocaust survivors. He wanted something that was going to be there for history because it's going to be part of the Royal Collection. But first of all, it's up in Scotland at the moment, but the portraits are going to come down to the National Portrait Gallery in October for Black History Month. And then they're going to be part of the Royal Collection. And the King said to me, 'Wouldn't it be great if we could get the portraits to go to the Caribbean?'
Lord Speaker:
Oh, lovely.
Baroness Benjamin:
The Caribbean is also part of the story - of the journey that people like myself have taken. So he's somebody who is forward-thinking and somebody who wants to embrace a wider kind of population as possible to show that he is thinking and having consideration and cares about our future.
Lord Speaker:
And you hope to establish a Windrush museum. And I've read the book by the Guardian journalist, Amelia Gentleman on it. And it's a tremendous book, real insight into the struggle, the resilience and the pain that's still being exercised. I think only 20% of the applications to the Home Office have been processed.
Baroness Benjamin:
Yeah, yeah, that's right. And I think the Home Office needs to think about the form that they're asking some of the-
Lord Speaker:
You want an independent-
Baroness Benjamin:
I'd like an independent review, a body to take over because I feel many people feel uncertain or afraid. Just yesterday I got a letter from a lawyer in Manchester who's saying there are many people who are coming forward but are still resistant fully applying because they are thinking if their forms are rejected, they might then get deported. So there's kind of still a fear there because the Home Office is the body that's overseeing everything that you're doing. And so I would really would like the Home Office to really consider how they're approaching people out there who are frightened to come forward, what they're doing. Because as you're saying only 20% of victims have actually received any money. And what's happening is many people are dying before they receive compensation. That needs to change as well. And I'm talking to ministers, I'm talking to the Home Office saying, 'What can I do to help?' Because I'm not just standing there shouting.
Lord Speaker:
Sure.
Baroness Benjamin:
I'm one of these people who get in there. Roll my sleeves up, say to the Home Office, 'Show me the form.' And I've tried to help them with the form saying, 'This is what needs changing. Because lawyers are telling me, even a legally-minded person, are finding difficult to doing the form.' And they are taking notice. But it's such a slow process. I first started saying, 'We need to have an independent body looking after this.' I started saying that about three, four years ago. And they said, 'Oh, well it'll take two years to set up a body.' It's been four years, so how much longer do we have to go on before it... And it takes somebody who's going to grasp the reigns and say, 'This is what we're going to do.' I'd like to see an amnesty.
If somebody has come to the country and been here all this time for their lives, why have they got to prove who they are? Why have they got... As long as there's certain criteria that we could go through, maybe that's something that needs to be looked at and to know... As I said, Caribbean people and people from the Windrush generation especially have given their heart and soul to this country. Have worked so hard doing menial tasks, not being paid in a way that they should be paid. And yet to come to this point in your life and still be rejected. It's a hard thing to take. And until somebody in the Home Office can put themselves in that place and understand what people are going through, then I think we're still going to have a battle and we are going to have this kind of way of getting them to see. That's why I'm trying to go in there and try and help them as much as possible.
Because until we get an independent body, we need to be working with whatever we've got. And I am happy to talk to the ministers, talk to the Home Office, say, 'Tell me what's going on. How can I help in any way possible?' Bringing people together. So the National Windrush Museum, that's going to be going to part of the story. But also to show the journey of how people from the Caribbean, why they came. Because they came, like I said, standing in the playground, being told you're British, being told you are part of the motherland, being told you're needed here, being told you're wanted. But coming and finding out it's not like that. But still having the resilience and the pride and the determination to make something not just for yourself but for your children and your grandchildren. And interestingly, the Queen, she came to Exeter when I was the chancellor, the University of Exeter.
Lord Speaker:
Did you give her a hug?
Baroness Benjamin:
We sort of hugged, we got on really well. We hugged virtually because when she came to celebrate her Diamond Jubilee and me being the chancellor, I had to take her around and show everything. And we got on really well. She was so open with me. She was a fascinating woman. She was like a walking encyclopedia. And she told me all about her children, about food, about the schools, about the House of Lords. We talked quite openly. And I thought, 'Well this woman is being so open with me. I think I'll tell her my story.' And I said, 'Ma'am, when I was a little girl in Trinidad, I was told the Queen loved me. I was told I was British. But when I came here, I wasn't part of that motherland they told me. I had to face so much adversity, break down so many barriers.
But because I knew I was loved and I knew my parents loved me and they gave me that confidence to face the world, I went out there and broke down those barriers. And I don't hate anybody. I've forgiven them all, because forgiveness frees the soul. And if you don't forgive and you have hatred in your heart, you remain the victim.' And I think she had real empathy because when you think about it, she went to Northern Ireland and shook Martin McGuinness's hand. So she understood what I was talking about. And apparently two days before she died, she told her Private Secretary, Edward Young, that she wanted to appoint me to the Order of Merit. And she had My Autobiography, What Are You Doing Here? on her desk. And the story of when we met at Exeter is in the book, and there's a picture of her and me in Exeter.
And she said to him, 'I wanted that little 10-year-old girl to realise that anything is possible. And I want to give hope to all 10-year-old girls to realise no matter where they come from, anything is possible.' And that was one of her final wishes two days before she died. Isn't that wonderful?
Lord Speaker:
Beautiful story. Your written word has still got a perennial flavour to it. Coming to England still read in every school. Your artistic work and your television programs Play Away and whatever else it is, that still holds an attraction for people. One thing I want to explore there is where did that lead you? Because I detect that you feel that culture is really a very important part of politics. Am I correct in that assumption?
Baroness Benjamin:
Very much so. I think when you work in the creative industries, you see how important it is to invest in children, in the future. You see how it's important that the way you present yourself, you carry yourself the policies that you have serves the country well because you're speaking from the heart and from the soul. You're understanding what the basic foundation of life is all about. And when you come into politics, if you can put over your story, if you can embrace people, no matter who they are, where they're from, to show them that they're important, they belong. That to me is the essence of politics. To be able to grasp the picture, because when you get a script, you've got to grasp the story, what you're trying to portray, what you're trying to get over to people. When you come into politics, it takes the same thing.
It doesn't happen overnight. But if you get a full understanding of what the mission in life is, what you're trying to aim for, how long it's going to take, then I think culture gives you that kind of sense of confidence. Because you have to be able to get over your story to persuade people. You know, and I know in the House, if you don't get the ear of the House, you're finished.
Lord Speaker:
Exactly.
Baroness Benjamin:
You have to present yourself, present your story, present what you want in a way that is going to captivate people's minds and get them to understand and to go with you. So I think culture is something that we should all... We're all part of it. We're all part of this great world that's out there that we need to delve into. Whether it's singing, whether it's telling stories, whether it's poetry, whether it's dance, whether it's music, whether it's mime, it helps build this... It feeds the soul.
It makes you feel better about who you are. So culture is something I think... Anybody in politics, you know, when you think of all the people from the political world who's come here, have had a great stage and platform to tell their story because we've had that basic understanding of rejection. Because not every amendment or every policy that you want you're going to get through. So you have that, you know, you understand that it takes time and you understand that you live to tell the story for another day. So I think culture plays a very important part in politics and that people shouldn't just think well... Because when I first came here-
Lord Speaker:
Does culture move agendas?
Baroness Benjamin:
I think culture can, because when I first came in here, people said, 'Well what does she know? She's only an actor. Why should we listen to him? He's only an actor.' But they don't realize that we, politics is part of all of us. Everything we do is part... Some people say, 'I'm not going to vote. I don't believe in politics.' Everything, every single person should be political. It doesn't mean you're going to be become a councillor or an MP or a peer in the House of Lords, but you have a say in politics. You know, you have to vote. You should become maybe a councillor, you should become a volunteer. All of those things are part of our cultural world. Part of giving because culture is all about giving. When you stand on a stage and perform, you're giving to an audience. You're embracing an audience, you're feeling for an audience. And if you can bring that with you to a place like this, you can actually captivate people's minds and understanding and get them to see things differently.
Lord Speaker:
The House of Lords itself, it comes in for quite a bit of criticism. First of all, how have you found life in the House of Lords? And secondly, how have you used the House of Lords as a platform and taken issues forward?
Baroness Benjamin:
I love being in the House of Lords. The House of Lords is probably the most diverse institution I've been involved in, because you find everything here. You find culture, colour, you find disability, you find all sorts of forms of life, all levels of life here. It's like a little village, and it's a place that where you have to think about what the consequences are. We are here to make sure that anything that happens to society has been fully thought through because it's going to affect the long-term consequences. Something, a policy that you make today won't manifest itself until 10, 20 years time. So we have a massive responsibility when we oversee policy that comes here and legislation that comes here. And I have used this place to the best of my ability. I remember one of the first triumphs I've had was when I made sure that child performance regulations got changed.
Because when I first came in here, because I've only been here for 13 years now, but about five years, me coming in, I got that policy changed because children weren't allowed to perform after seven o'clock in front of a live camera. If there were no cameras, they could perform until 10 o'clock at night. But they suddenly weren't allowed to perform on television. Things like Britain's Got Talent, Royal Albert Hall, Royal Opera House who wanted to perhaps stream live performances across the country. They couldn't do that. I got that changed. I got ITV, Channel 4, Channel 5 to start producing children's programs because up until 2017, only 1% of children's programs was made in this country. Can you imagine? 1%. So I got all the broadcasters together, I got the DCMS to change it. It nearly killed me doing it, I'm telling you, because I had to fight and fight and fight to get it done.
It took me about three years to get that policy through. Now broadcasters are making and producing children's programs. That was incredible for me. And I've got so many other issues fighting for them all the time. Online safety. 12 years now I've been saying we need to bring in age verification. I started saying the online world needed to be regulated when I was on Ofcom Content Board 2003 saying, 'We've got to regulate the internet.' And they said, 'Oh, it can't be done. Why should we do it?' Suddenly it's happening. It's taken 12 years in this place pushing and pushing. Finally the government has said, 'Yes, we're going to bring in age verification.' Hallelujah.
Lord Speaker:
You and Baroness Kidron and others have been really involved in the Online Safety Bill and you have moved agendas there.
Baroness Benjamin:
Oh yeah, definitely. And luckily you see, I'm very fortunate because many of the ministers are what I call my Play School babies. They grew up watching me when they were little. And so they know that Floella has always stuck by her principles. Because I've always tried to act with morality, with integrity and with honesty and to be the person other people can trust. And that's something, that's my mantra. People should be able to be trusted, especially if you're coming into politics. My mantra is always to keep smiling because winners smile and those are the kinds of principles that I've always worked towards. And part of me sticking to the principle of getting in age verification so that children cannot easily access online pornography. It nearly happened because in 2017 we got that law passed, but because of whatever reason it didn't happen.
And when Boris Johnson came in 2019, he stopped it. I was heartbroken. I wept when I heard that news because I'd given so much of my energy making sure that we protect our children from easily acting online pornography. So to get to this stage from 2019 to now, it's taken four years for that to actually change. And so I feel yes, it's finally happened. There's still things in the bill that needs to be worked on and I'm going to be still debating whether we have enforcement, the right enforcement in place. But it's got to be, I feel a holistic view of how we manage being able to regulate the internet and to make sure that the tech companies, the multi-tech companies don't think they can shortchange our children. And that's what I've been fighting for, for 12 years.
And to have a voice like Baroness Kidron there because she's exactly the same. We're kindred spirits. Kindred, I like that. We're kindred spirits when it comes to making sure our children are protected and our children are thought about when designs are happening, when content is put on the internet, everything that makes sure that our children have a healthy, full complete life where their mind's not broken. Because what we are creating at the moment is a cesspit for our children and we must change that and we must consider our children in every way possible.
Lord Speaker:
And that's the House of Lords leading the way.
Baroness Benjamin:
Yes, because when I started talking about this, I was the only person on our benches. I was the only person who was actually saying all of this. And it was David Cameron in fact who heard me speak and he said, 'Floella, I've got young children and we're going to change this.' And he got Baroness Shields to start it off. And that was 12 years ago. So it's been because of someone like myself speaking out for children because I've always used this platform to speak out for children, because childhood lasts a lifetime. And what we do for children today will manifest itself in years to come. I do a lot of prison visits. I go into prisons and I speak to the prisoners and many grown men weep and they say, 'When I was a child this is what happened to me. When I was a child... When I was a child...'
So I know the importance of childhood and I know online pornography was one of the things that was poisoning a lot of children's minds. A mother came to me and told me that her four-year-old daughter was abused by a 10-year-old. I was told so many awful stories that I knew something had to be done. And that's why I'm so passionate about making and ensuring that some of the prisoners I see in Rye Hill Prison who were telling me, 'Floella, keep on fighting. Make sure that no little 10-year-old ends up in the place that I've ended up because somebody hasn't done something about it.' So when you see the world through the eyes of the child, you feel motivated. Every day I get up and I say to my husband, 'Here we go, what's in store?' And I just love making a difference to other people's worlds and other people's lives. None more so than children. I love making children's lives happy and I've done that for the last 47 years and I will continue to do just that.
Lord Speaker:
Diversity. You mentioned diversity. What more do we need to do for diversity maybe in the House of Lords and in society in general?
Baroness Benjamin:
Well, I think in society generally, having the Windrush story being talked about now being open now. More people in society are realising that something needs to be done because being a Black person or Black people, we can't do it on our own. We've got everybody to understand the way the King understands. We want everybody to have that same vision of how we make our country more inclusive. To take responsibility to feel the way I said about the producer couldn't see what was missing. For everybody to see what's missing. And because we had, you know, the story of Windrush victims that happened, I had a garden for the Chelsea Flower Show. It was a Windrush garden.
Lord Speaker:
Which you won a gold award for.
Baroness Benjamin:
I won a gold medal. I felt very proud of that. And the BBC did a program on it. And when the garden was shown at Chelsea Flower Show so many middle class white people came up and said, 'Forgive me, Floella. We didn't understand what was going on. We didn't understand what people like you had to face every day. And we feel ashamed. Will you please forgive me?' Interestingly, when I became a peer here, a policeman came up and said, 'Lady Benjamin, my Lady. Please forgive me.' And said, 'I was in the force the time when many of the issues you talk about, your book Coming to England, you talk about, I was around in the police force at that time seeing that happening and I was too afraid to say anything. I didn't speak up and say no. And now I feel ashamed. Will you please forgive me?'
And I think when I'd start telling my story of what I had to go through, people are shocked first of all to know that I had to go through that, smiling Floella. But they also feel ashamed and they vow to make a difference. And I think that's the only way we will get diversity, inclusion to be all embracing, is for other people to take responsibility. And walking around the House of Lords now compared to when I came in 13 years ago, it's changing because it's not just people sitting on the red benches need to reflect diversity and we have a certain amount of people of colour in the House of Lords. I think there should be more and hopefully there will be more in years to come. But also behind the scenes, who's working in the offices, the people sitting on the... clerks.
I've never seen a person of colour as a clerk sitting on the bench. I'd love to see that happen. I'd love to see people of colour in every facet in the House of Lords and the House of Commons as well. In the House of Commons, they have got people of colour sitting in the chamber, but it hasn't anybody who carrying the mace with you, sitting on the, you know, giving the oath, things like that. I think when people watch us, they will see this is the place where on all levels in the House of Lords, diversity and inclusion is happening. And it's slowly but surely happening. Whenever I see someone of colour, I always say, 'Hello, lovely to meet you. I'm so proud of you are here.' And make them feel as if they're included. And so it shouldn't be a token thing, it should be something that comes naturally.
Of course you come here on merit. Of course, I'm not saying someone should just come in just because they're someone of colour. Come in with merit. But give people opportunities because before, you haven't been given opportunities because of the colour you are. Now I think those doors are opening. You have more and more people in life representing big organisations and you have more and more people speaking out on platforms that you're now seeing yourself, yes I can. Yes I can. Yes I belong. And I'm told that every single day. I'm told that, people say, 'You don't know what you've done for me, Floella and my family. Just seeing you.' And that's people from all cultures are saying, 'You being there shows me that I belong and it's possible.' And so that's what I think the House of Lords needs to do. It's got to show the outside world that anything is possible.
And it's great that you're having this kind of initiative and having this Speaker's Corner where you can find out what got a person here. Because many people in the House of Lords, they weren't born with a silver spoon in their mouth. They've had to battle. There was one peer who... I had a group of children who came in and we were in one of the committee rooms and I got about six peers to sit with them and tell them their story. One peer said, 'I came to Britain with just a suitcase, nothing else. Now I'm in the House of Lords.' One peer said, 'I was an assistant teacher and I worked my way into local council. Then suddenly here I am in the House of Lords.' One said, 'I worked in a factory.' One said, 'I was a train driver.'
So children then see, doesn't matter where you've come from, the House of Lords will give you an opportunity if you are prepared to work, if you're prepared to take opportunities, if you're prepared to give and to be somebody who's dedicated to duty, someone who's prepared to make a difference and to have that kind of dedication, that is to other people's wellbeing. That's all it takes to be in a member of the House of Lords. The House of Lords to me is not a place that it's an honour. The House of Lords is an appointment. And when you're appointed, you have to make a sacrifice. You have to say, 'I want to make a difference.' A House of Lords is a place I feel the appointments committee needs to be more kind of powerful. Because I think some people are coming in thinking it's an honour. It's not an honour. A knighthood is an honour. A CBE is an honour.
When you become a peer, it's an appointment with massive responsibilities. Are you prepared to take that opportunity? And I also believe the House of Lords the numbers need to be capped because there are lots of people like myself who are here almost every day determined to work and determined to make a difference to society, to scrutinise legislation, to hold people, to account to form... I formed three APPGs, All-Party Groups, making a difference. I mean, my first All-Party Group for children's media and arts and culture were the ones who first brought to the House, the fact about online pornography, because we were seeing children were on computers and pornography was just coming up. Adverts were just coming up. We brought attention to that. I brought in the fact that children, they weren't any dentures and so many children were suffering not from tooth decay. That's one of the things that the All-Party Group for a fit and healthy child. We helped government with some of the research that we've done.
So there's a place that is not just in the chamber, that you do your work. It's the All-Party Groups, some of the committees you sit on making sure that the world is a better place because many people across the world, they look to us to see what we've done. With the Online Safety Bill, the world is looking at us. How are we going to legislate the online world? We have got a massive responsibility not just to this country, but to the world. And so if you're a peer, that's what you've got to come to this place with knowing you want to make a difference.
Lord Speaker:
And Baroness Kidron, whom I have interviewed has said to me with the Online Safety Bill, that the proposition she has, she's taken them to the Governor of California and then taken them to the White House since they asked. So the power of the House of Lords with yourself and others working that Online Safety Bill has got a global reach.
Baroness Benjamin:
Exactly. And I was talking to the Lord Speaker from Trinidad and the Caribbean. I work with the Caribbean a lot. And again, drawing their attention to what's going on. I work with the Internet Watch Foundation because children are being abused across the world. So I'm connecting with kind of countries in Africa, with countries in the Caribbean. So each and every one of us are taking that responsibility and showing the rest of the world, this is what needs to happen. This is the reflection of our society that is affecting you as well.
Because the online world isn't just our little circus, our little kind of shores that we have, it's spreading. I realised that when I was on Ofcom, I realised what was happening with the online world and somebody had to stop. It's like the Wild West of the 21st century was happening in front of our very eyes. That needs to stop. And it doesn't just stop at our borders. Other people are looking to see how we're doing it. And I'm pleased and proud to be part of the House of Lords that's brought that to the attention of the world. Just yes.
Lord Speaker:
It's a superb commendation. A couple of points to finish. One, I was privileged to be at the Coronation of King Charles III and uplifted to see the number of peers who were engaged, not least yourself, where you carried the Sceptre. Now the values associated with the Sceptre seem to me to coincide with your own values. Can you illustrate that for me? And lastly, you've been so much involved with young people from this podcast, what's your message to young people. I know it'll be uplifting and I know there'll be a smile on it, but I would like you to finish on that note.
Baroness Benjamin:
Well, when I was asked by the King and the Queen to carry the Sceptre with Dove it represented me, peace, mercy, spirituality. And I saw this as a glimpse of the future to be asked not to have a hereditary peer carry it, but to have someone like me carry it. Diversity and inclusion was being embraced. And I wanted people from all walks of life to realize if someone like Floella Benjamin can do this, then so can I. I just want to pave the way for future generations. It was the most spiritual, uplifting experience I've had. In fact, the King hugged me the following day and said, 'Thank you.' He said, 'Thank you for doing what you've done for me.' Because I think that's the message he wants to send to his subjects in this country. And my message to young people, never be afraid. Believe in yourself.
Never compromise yourself. Stand up for what you believe in. Learn to say no. And if you do come into politics, be the person other people can trust. Acting with morality, with integrity, with honesty, and be trusted for all if you can do that. And it starts from now as a child. Learning to deal with temptation. Learning to be able to say no. Learning, not to fall into the trap of this world that we're living in. This consumer led world. Not to be consumed by consumerism, but to have that feeling of satisfaction and to practice what I call the philosophy of my three Cs. The first C is C for consideration. To have empathy and understanding for other people. Young people don't realize what that means. We've got to keep on reminding them what that means. The second C is C for contentment. To have a happy, contented heart. Knowing what's right for you will come when you least expect it. Not to be jealous of other people.
My mum always used to say, 'Don't ever be jealous of other people. You don't know what they've done to get it.' And the third C is see for confidence. The confidence to look in the mirror every day of your life and like the person who's looking back at you. To be a decent human being. To know that one day a door will open on the other side will be the rest of your life. To be able to do all of that, also takes a fourth C. C for courage, to have the moral courage to stand up for truth. The moral courage to press the reset button and do things differently, the ethical way. And my mum and dad, they showed me that. My mum and dad showed me the importance of all those qualities. And in fact, I called myself Baroness Benjamin of Beckenham. Because my mum wanted to go and live in Beckenham in Kent. Because she said, 'If you live there, you're going to get the best healthcare, the best education, the best jumble sales.'
[laughter]
So we went to look at this house in Beckenham. But when we went to look at it and we were viewing the house, the police came to arrest us because they said, 'Black people are stealing the fixtures and fittings in the house.'
Baroness Benjamin:
And my mum said, 'We're going to live in this house.' She was determined to live there. And she lived there for 40 years along with my dad. But she died before I became a Baroness in the House of Lords. And she's now buried in Beckenham Cemetery. So I went to the cemetery and I said, 'Mommy, daddy.' That's what I call my parents. 'Mommy, Daddy. I'm going to claim Beckham for you. I'm going to call myself Baroness Benjamin of Beckenham.'
And now whenever I need my mum, whenever something fantastic happens to me, like when the Queen came to Exeter, when I was introduced into the House of Lords, when I was rehearsing with the Sceptre at Buckingham Palace, because we had four days rehearsals for the Coronation. Whenever anything incredible happens to me, I find a white feather. Because I know my mum is looking down on me. And I found that white feather here as I sit in the House of Lords too. So I feel spiritually uplifted and I want to tell young people to find that spirituality within their own souls to feel good about who you are and know everything you do in life is to make this world a better place for others.
Lord Speaker:
Yes, well can I thank you so much for such an uplifting contribution, full of optimism and hope and humanity. And my only question left now is, do you have any spare hugs?
Baroness Benjamin:
Of course.
Lord Speaker:
Thank you very much Baroness Benjamin. Thank you.