Lord Speaker's Corner: Baroness Kidron
21 April 2023
From making movies for Stephen Spielberg to groundbreaking protections for young people online, Baroness Kidron talks to Lord McFall of Alcluith about her wide-ranging work as a filmmaker and campaigner.
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Lord Speaker:
Baroness Kidron, or Beeban, welcome to Lord Speaker's Corner. Now I believe that when you were at a very young age, 11, that you were in the hospital, perhaps for a year you weren't able to talk and that imposed silence led to your vocation and career. Tell us about it.
Baroness Kidron:
Yeah, I had a very funny start to life. I was actually born with a cleft palate and then as I got older, had a number of operations and then ended up with a voice that was about an octave lower than it is now. And I sounded as if I had a very bad smoking habit at the age of 10. And the doctors actually intervened and said that I needed to have an operation on my throat to help me speak. But as part of that, they forbade me to speak and for three months before the operation or run or do anything that irritated the throat. And then for about seven months after the operation,
I had to learn how to speak all over again. And I think the two interesting things about it is, one is that before I learned to speak, I had a very broad Yorkshire accent, which I don't have anymore. And the other thing is that a family friend gave me a camera and from that moment I became an observer. And one of the things about being an observer is that not only are you looking for the image… you're looking at what's there. You also begin to see where the power is in a room, where the energy is who speaks and who doesn't get heard. And I actually credit that period of my life as being the beginning of my social activism on behalf of people who I felt were not heard.
Lord Speaker:
And tell me about some of the films and documentaries that you've been involved in and don't be shy about it because you've got a great record.
Baroness Kidron:
Well, I started off, I went to film school as a camerawoman and then by the time I left, I was a director. And I think that the first film I ever made was actually at Greenham Common at the Peace Camp when I was still a student. But because I was the only woman in the camera department, I decided to take the camera to Greenham and learn how to use it out of sight of the boys. And in fact, that became a film called Carry Greenham Home, which has been shown all over the world that was in the Berlin Film Festival and so on. And became a huge rallying cry for the peace movement at the time.
And it gave me huge confidence as a cinematographer. By the time I left film school, I had actually hooked up with a writer and a producer, and I made one of Channel Four's first films when Channel Four was invented called Vroom. And that interestingly was the first film of Clive Owen and of David Thewlis, who then both went on to be big stars. And I was just off to the races, I was happy I was making films at the BBC and I got a call and the call was Steven Spielberg and George Lucas would like to meet you.
And I flew off to LA to meet those two men who were the kings of the movie business. And I ended up working for Steven later on in my career. I never worked for George, but he was a friend of mine for some time after that meeting. So suddenly from being someone who was making films in the UK for Channel Four for the BBC, the BBC was an important part of my career. I made Oranges Are Not the Only Fruit for the BBC. I made a film called Antonia and Jane, which was distributed as a movie right across America. And then I went to Hollywood and I never expected myself to be there. It was extraordinary. It was fun, it was hard. And I lived in America for about five years and made a number of films before I came home.
Lord Speaker:
The title of this interview is Beeban goes to Hollywood. [Laughter]
Baroness Kidron:
And then comes back.
Lord Speaker:
Right, okay. And you mentioned being an observer and Steven Spielberg. I mean he's probably one of the most acute observers. What did you learn there and why did he want to see you?
Baroness Kidron:
I had made this, well, I think it was two things. It was Oranges and it was Antonia and Jane and he was really interested in both of those films. He thought that he had discovered a new voice and eventually I made a film for him called To Wong Foo, Thanks for Everything! Julie Newmar, which was actually quite a big film in America. And it was a film about three drag queens. What was interesting about the drag queens was that they were played by Patrick Swayze, Wesley Snipes and John Leguizamo. And the first two were huge stars at the time and it was very controversial that they would be playing these drag queens. But if you look at the timing of the film, it was after the AIDS epidemic was sort of coming to an end and every time someone from that community appeared in a film, they were always dying.
And this was very much the author who was a gay man wanted to sort of have a celebratory film. And it's a very joyous film about three drag queens crossing America, getting stuck in Nebraska and their impact and effect on the Nebraskan village community where they end up. So I made that film. I think what I learned from Steven, apart from just the joy of working for someone who just was a director himself and knew what the process was and looked at my rushes every day was in the editing. When he saw the film, he wrote two lists. He said, these are the things I think you should change because it'll make a difference at the box office. These are the things that are a question of taste I would do, but you don't have to.
And I always appreciated that and I've always taken that with me throughout my life, even into my political life. These are the things that would make a difference. These are questions of taste or language that we don't need to quarrel about. That, being able to make that distinction is a really important life skill as well as it was very welcome. I also want to say about Steven Spielberg was that I found out I was pregnant in the run up to making To Wong Foo, and there was a problem with my health insurance and he was so outraged as a father of many children that I was being discriminated against.
He said that if anything happened to me on that film to do with my pregnancy, that he would step in and direct so that there was no issue for the insurance company. And he is the reason that I got insurance. And I always say to him, 'I don't understand why they didn't push me down the stairs and have you do the drag queen movie. It would've been a smash hit.' But I do want to say that because I had a lot of issues about being a female director in that period. But that was a huge point and many women have since made films during their pregnancies.
Lord Speaker:
You've also done films with Judi Dench and Bridget Jones Diary and others?
Baroness Kidron:
Yeah, Bridget Jones, Edge of Reason. I made the second Bridget Jones here. That was when I came back to the UK and that was a joyous experience and it was great to have the English humour and be back amongst my friends and colleagues that I'd left behind.
Lord Speaker:
As well as being an observer. It seems there's been a social purpose to your work on that. Has that social purpose link followed you here into the House of Lords?
Baroness Kidron:
Absolutely. In between all the 'movie movies', I always made documentaries and I've made them on a vast range of subjects from sex work to artists to religious sects, all sorts of things. And it was in fact just that I really felt that film was a fantastic way of communicating ideas and issues to people. And in fact, the reason I believe that I got appointed to the Lords was because I set up a charity that used film to educate children in state schools. And it was my contention that while we were all struggling to get kids to read a book or come to school or be interested, that actually most people don't have the same problem about watching a film. And we set it up very, very quick, very carefully with the input of teachers, with the input of, in fact, David Putnam who was already here with a lot of care.
And we set up what was first called Film Club now called Into Film. And it was a system whereby kids could watch films and they weren't tested on any part of it, but that it would build a sort of a culture, a common culture, a common experience would raise their eyes to a horizon of places and things they haven't thought about. And over the years, I have to say that Into Film has had the most phenomenal support both from the film industry but also from politicians of every colour. So Alan Johnson, Gordon Brown, Michael Gove, Gibb, all of these people have at some point or other actually put their heart and their shoulder and their money behind it because we have the most fantastic outcomes for the kids.
And what's really wonderful is that, although it works right across the piece with young people and we work from five until 18 right across the education spectrum, what is really unbelievable and exciting to me is that all our research shows it works best for the excluded and the gifted and talented. And so that those two groups of people end up in film club together and rub off on each other. And we even found at certain periods that kids who didn't come to school came on film club days. So it has been hugely successful and I'm absolutely grateful to the part Department of Education who last year actually made it a platform available to all teachers and all state schools. Absolutely fantastic.
Lord Speaker:
I've just finished watching Simon Schama's BBC documentary, it's three parts, the History of Now and he makes a fantastic case for the link between culture and politics and the change that can happen politically as a result of culture. Would you share that view?
Baroness Kidron:
Absolutely. I mean, if you really think about it, culture traditionally has been in the oral tradition. We've told ourselves stories and in those stories are the values and is the history and it carries the information. And so depending on who's doing the telling, that culture, history and information somewhat shifts. So I absolutely think that learning is a thing of the heart and the mind and a shared experience. And that's what art is, that's what culture is. That's all our stories. Whether they are strictly speaking, historical or imaginative of the future. And I put this to you is we've recently seen the Secret Service in different countries, I believe including our own, trying to get the sci-fi writers to come in and write about the future because they keep on seeing that people are writing these imaginary things 10 years later. It's our present. So it's not only our history but our future. And it's really interesting. 'Raise the storytellers' tell I. And I don't think there is a political party in this building that takes that seriously enough.
Lord Speaker:
In terms of the big issues with the, in politics, there's a view that politics is always behind the curve in terms of remedial action as a result of that. So if we're pursuing that line, do you think there is a case for more involvement of people of culture and a futuristic look to be involved in politics? Because it could be said that we're always fighting the last war, we're not looking ahead.
Baroness Kidron:
I think if I was going to... my response to that is probably even more critical in the sense that it's not even that politics is behind the curve is politics is so firmly fixed on the present that they're not dealing with either the things we know from the past that we already know nor what's coming up the pike. And I think that we really have to work out this 24-hour news cycle and the political response to it is really, really damaging for the long-term future of people and country. So I do agree and more and in terms of people of culture, I actually think that yes, they should be more involved and we should take the cultural community more seriously, both as an economic powerhouse, but also just the narratives and stories and skills that they have. But I would also say that we need to do that with academia as well.
We are not getting the learning that is in our universities into our political system and there's too much policy and legislation that's sort of almost written by the lowest common denominator rather than actually trying to solve the problem. It's responding to a theoretical idea rather than taking the evidence or the culture and saying, how do we embody that in our laws? And I think that's something that we've seen over time that in the old days laws was the writing down of the common law. It was the writing down of how we already lived. Now we are in an era where we are telling people how to live through law and I think that has been a very, I'm not a legal historian, but I think that that has been a very, very toxic thing on our politics and we should go back to much more a cultural base of writing down how we want to live together.
Lord Speaker:
Good. I want to go onto social media and the impact you've had in that, which has been considerable. But you've mentioned the issue of story and narrative. What do you think the story of the House of Lords should be? If you look at the papers, we find it's all pretty negative. If it piped up tomorrow, nobody would miss it.
Baroness Kidron:
So my experience is that people would miss it. And actually, I have to say my inbox of my email is full of very kind supportive letters saying, keep going, keep going. And I have to say, just as someone who worked very isolated as a director, who worked with crews again and again but was on my own, I find this a place of such wisdom and collegiate practice and the committee system right across the political piece and the role of the crossbenches of which I am one really, really embedding a less tribal approach to politics and so on. All of those things are very important. I think almost all of us agree, it is too big. Almost all of us are frustrated by the political favour. Almost all of us want to see some sort of restrictions on who can be here and what their contribution is.
If you put that on one side, I think you have to say that the Lords is completely responsible for ironing out legislation in this that you would have to do it some other way if we were absent, that actually that many of us are in a time of our lives where we have chosen public service either over sitting at home and doing not very much or filling the coffers. And I think that the ability to make change in the world, in the world, not just in the UK from this place I have experienced firsthand. And I think that as people look at the Lords and say, 'we want it to be different', I would challenge them to keep all the good things about it whilst curtailing the bad rather than just going, okay, boof, out it goes. And we have something that maybe doesn't answer the skills and opportunities that the current system has. That's what I would ask.
Lord Speaker:
So you're really advocating the retention of a second chamber with a composition different from the House of Commons and a purpose which is essentially real scrutiny to affect good law, is that it?
Baroness Kidron:
I think that's right. And whether that actually has an elected portion or an elected whole is absolutely up for grabs. But I do think it shouldn't just be a mirror. And the funny thing is that my work on tech regulation takes me very often to Washington. And I can see firsthand those two chambers.
Lord Speaker:
California and the Governor. And you went to the White House. So tell us about that.
Baroness Kidron:
Yeah, so in 2012 when the data bill came into the Lords, I put forward an amendment that created a data protection regime for children. And it went through the ICO, which is our regulator, sort of expanded it and made the rules and then it came into force. And when it came into force, we saw the biggest changes in social media that we've seen in two decades, since it's been a thing in our lives. And the world sort of lit up and went, everybody's struggling with this issue. We didn't understand that privacy legislation could be that impactful. And a lot of people reached out to me and said, we'd like to do something like the code.
Now, I set up some years ago, Five Rights Foundation, which is a charity that works at the intersection of children and digital media. And I said to my colleagues at Five Rights, well, if people want our help, let's help them. And so we are currently working in seven different countries and I believe that by the end of the legislative season, there will be five more states who have passed age-appropriate design codes in their own system. And there are places now at a sort of multilateral levels like the African Union and through the UNCRC, which is the Children's rights organisation who are also adopting and suggesting that we use this law. And that is one code introduced in the UK.
Lord Speaker:
In the House of Lords.
Baroness Kidron:
In the House of Lords. That has had this huge impact. And I think that what's really interesting about it is that's great, that's a really coherent standalone piece of regulation. But what's really interesting is the language of that code has had much, much more impact. Still, it is responsible for raising the age of childhood online from 13 to 18. It has introduced a concept called 'likely to be accessed' rather than directed at children. So you're not always improving CBeebies and Sesame Street, you're actually improving Instagram and TikTok and those kinds of services. And it also is a safety by design regime. It says, this is what the company must do, stop putting it on kids and parents to actually organise themselves ineffectively on this huge monster of a machine that is in their hands, in their bedrooms, in their lives every day.
You detoxify it and then they'll do their bit. So this safety by design, those three concepts are in the Digital Services Act, in the Online Safety Bill, in the AI Act, and increasingly in American legislation. And we're seeing it in Argentina, Mexico, Indonesia, and so on. So it's been hugely influential. And going back to your point, the narrative of the age-appropriate design code, it changed the narrative about who was responsible for the privacy and safety of children online. Actually it's the companies. No other sector is allowed to sell rent, use their products and services if they knowingly present a very high risk to children, we just wouldn't allow it. Cars without breaks, drugs in doses for adult body weight, we wouldn't allow it. We don't allow it. And this is the beginning along with the upcoming Online Safety Bill and all the other things that are happening around the world of saying actually new world order. You are a regulated sector now.
Lord Speaker:
Good, but there's more to do yet. Absolutely. And these companies, they're transnational and therefore that gives them a huge advantage. But what you are describing is the coming together of countries to do something. So I would suggest you're reasonably optimistic, but it's a big agenda yet.
Baroness Kidron:
I am reasonably optimistic. And I think we have to say we have all sorts of rules about how we use the road about vehicles and so on. And still people die on the roads. We have all sorts of rules about all sorts of things. And still we have problems. At the moment or until very recently, the tech sector sort of managed to pump tens of millions into an idea of exceptionalism that they were above and beyond those considerations. We will never make everything safe for everyone everywhere. But there is such a poor practice that what we are doing is creating a floor, not a ceiling, but a floor.
You must not fall below this floor. You must think about children before you roll out a product, not after you've hurt them. And I feel this very passionately, and I think that I am a supporter and brought together a bunch of bereaved families, all of whom have lost their children as a result of something that happened on social media to murder others to suicide. And that is the ultimate price. And I say I cannot rest. We cannot rest until that is not allowed to happen without any checks or balances that it will sometimes happen, we all accept, but it should not be this normal. And across America and here and Europe, I have so many bereaved families who contact me and I'm mad as hell. I think it's wrong.
Lord Speaker:
Now, you're a very successful person. And if you hadn't come into the House of Lords, you'd have made your mark or you have made your mark. What's the House of Lords done that's provided added value for that?
Baroness Kidron:
Well, I think on the tech issue, I did first come across it by making a documentary about teenagers and technology. And at that time, and I had quite a good phone book, I was a Hollywood movie director. I tried to tell people, I told people in politics, I told people at tech companies, I told people in children's rights no one was interested. We'd all had the Kool-Aid. Everyone said tech was the future. And I was treated as if I was a sort of middle-aged woman who didn't understand the new rock and roll. And I think that my position in the Lords gave me a platform from which I could make the argument first of all in the house then in legislation and then around the world.
And I am really grateful for that. And I see other colleagues doing it on other issues. And I think that that's the other thing to say about the Lords is for the most part, not all together and not on the voting, but for the most part we are organized around our expertise and the change we want to see and the effort that we are prepared to put in. My friends who work with me on tech are on the government benches, on the opposition benches, come from the bishops and from my own crossbenches, we are unified in what we want to see. So we are thematic rather than tribal. And I think that that is a unique opportunity in politics, which I very often see the lack of in other parts in of the world.
Lord Speaker:
Great words. Thank you very much Baroness Kidron, Beeban. Fantastic conversation.
Baroness Kidron:
Thank you so much.