Lord Speaker's Corner: Lord Lamont of Lerwick

In this episode

‘Although I personally would not have joined the ERM and although I personally didn't think it was a disaster when we had to leave, I think the period we were in the ERM for two years did actually do the economy a huge amount of good.’

Norman Lamont, now Lord Lamont of Lerwick, was Chancellor of the Exchequer in the early 90s, and was responsible for trying to restore stability after the UK dramatically crashed out of the European Exchange Rate Mechanism (ERM) on ‘Black Wednesday’. In this episode, he shares with Lord McFall of Alcluith what was going on behind the scenes and explains that despite it being ‘a political disaster… a great humiliation’, it set up the following 15 years of growth.

‘I did actually go and see both Gordon Brown and Tony Blair when they were in opposition. And I told them that it wasn't my business to do anything to help the Labour Party, but I think it would be in the interest, thought it would be in the interest of the country, if they made the Bank of England independent.’

Lord Lamont also explains how he suggested to Gordon Brown and Tony Blair to make the Bank of England independent, having not managed to convince John Major to do the same when he was Prime Minister. He also explains how we have got to where we are with interest rates today, by introducing a policy to use interest rate setting to target a set percentage for inflation.

Born in Shetland, Lord Lamont also explains how growing up there influenced his perspectives on the UK and Europe, and talks about his hopes for the UK's relationship with the EU post-Brexit.

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Lord Speaker:

Good. Lord Lamont, Norman, welcome to the Lord Speaker's Podcast. Can I start with your early life? You started in Shetland, seems a long way from a boy in the most northerly part of the United Kingdom to the City and to Westminster. How did you start in Shetland?

Lord Lamont:

Well, my father was the surgeon. When I say the surgeon, I mean the only surgeon. He did everything. I think today there are several surgeons in Shetland. And he had a very active life getting on boats, going out to see people. I went to school there, stayed there until I was, I think 11 or 12. Then we moved to Perthshire.

But growing up in Shetland, was a great experience. I mean, it's very cut off. Hard life really for many people there. Closer to Norway than it is to Aberdeen. Jo Grimond was once asked, "What's the nearest railway station?" He had to fill in a form. He said, "Bergen." [Laughter]

So I think actually in a funny way, Shetland is less Scottish than many other parts of Scotland. And many people there have an affection for the concept of Britain. I think I'm a very strong unionist, but I think that's affected partly by having been born in Shetland.

Lord Speaker:

Yeah. In fact, I think at the time of the referendum in the Scottish Parliament, Shetland had a different point of view from the rest of Scotland.

Lord Lamont:

They didn't want the devolution. That's right. And Shetland also in the referendum, were you referring to the referendum about the Scottish Parliament?

Lord Speaker:

Yes, yes.

Lord Lamont:

In the EU referendum, not the 2016 one, but the one that Harold Wilson had, they were the only part of the UK that voted not to join the EEC. And the reason that was given for that, rather jocularly, was that the government published a pamphlet setting out all the advantages of joining the EEC. And they had a map on the front of the British Isles, and Shetland was not included. [Laughter]

Lord Speaker:

Good. And I've always had the impression that Shetland and other islands felt that Edinburgh was a long way away, and maybe that-

Lord Lamont:

Yes, I think that's absolutely right. That's what I was trying to say. They looked to London as much the same as Edinburgh, really. And I think many people there did have a feeling of being British, as well as being Scottish, but a strong feeling of being British.

Lord Speaker:

And then you went to Cambridge. And your friends there, Michael Howard and other individuals. Leon Brittan, you were a good friend of his. What was your experience in Cambridge like? You seem to be the frontline people. Were you all going to make Prime Minister?

Lord Lamont:

[Laughter] I don't think so. I think we all wanted to get involved in politics. I don't think we thought about becoming Prime Minister, or certainly I didn't. I think that I was always very interested in politics. My mother was very political in Shetland. I mean, she was a supporter of the Conservative Party in Shetland, which had a bigger vote then than it does now, even though it was still a liberal constituency.

And she used to take me to political meetings in Shetland, they did have such things. I mean, I remember being by my mother's side where Sir David Maxwell Fife, I think he was then Secretary of State for Scotland, spoke in a village hall in Shetland. An abiding memory.

But I went up to Cambridge, interested in politics. I wouldn't say I was a diehard Conservative. I joined the Liberal Club, the Labour Club, the Marxist Society, and the Conservative Society.

Lord Speaker:

A Marxist?

Lord Lamont:

And the European Society, as well, to look at all the viewpoints. But I remember I met Kenneth Clarke and John Gummer, Lord Deben now, and got drawn into them. And I decided I had more in common with the Conservatives. I had quite a long flirtation with the Liberals actually, because of my connection with Jo Grimond's constituency.

But I became more aware of politics. I think, I thought, shall I become a journalist when I leave? Shall I be a civil servant? I thought the world of public affairs was exciting and something I wanted to be involved in. And then gradually the thought occurred to me that maybe I could actually get involved in politics.

And I have all these friends, as you say, Michael Howard, Leon Britain, Peter Lilley, John Gummer, Kenneth Clarke. We all tended to be on the Macleod wing of the Conservative party, very much liberal Conservatives rather against the Ancien Régime. Our views since have dissipated and we've all become different.

But in those days, we were all Macleod-istes. But I think in the Union debates at Cambridge, we sort of found our feet and found our identity.

Lord Speaker:

And Ted Heath, famous for our entry into Europe. What was your opinion at that time? Did you have a different opinion from him?

Lord Lamont:

Well, I supported joining the EEC as it was then called. I made my maiden speech, and I had a go at Enoch Powell who was opposing it. And-

Lord Speaker:

And Michael Foot?

Lord Lamont:

Michael Foot was opposing it. But Enoch Powell, I had heard speak at Cambridge once in favour of joining the EEC. Now, when I was in Parliament, he was opposing it. So I made a little bit of fun of how I'd been converted to being pro-EEC by Enoch Powell, and he was very generous about that and very nice to me afterwards.

But that was my maiden speech. And I believed at that time in joining the European Economic Community, I believed in the free trade area. My shift to Euro scepticism and supporting Brexit was really because as I saw it, the nature of Europe changed.

Ted Heath, you don't get many people who say a good word for him these days. But I have to say at the time I admired him. He was a contrast, a bit of a breath of fresh air with the old-fashioned Ancien Régime we'd had. He was a big contrast to Sir Alec Douglas-Home: a very honourable man, but gave an impression of being something of an amateur. Whereas Heath was a master of detail.

I think the Conservatives chose him as leader of the Conservative party, really, because they thought he was the only person who could take on Harold Wilson, who was a great mastery of detail. Heath didn't have Wilson's debating skills, Wilson's Witt, but he had this great grasp. And although I subsequently became disillusioned with what happened with Heath's policy and disagreed with some of it, I admired his sense of purpose.

His determination that Britain should not get into a cycle of decline. Britain needed to be modernized in all sorts of ways. He was quite a radical person. I remember Richard Crossman, the Labour Cabinet Minister, gave a series of lectures at Harvard where he talked in awe about Ted Heath. He called him the battering ram of change. He was just so amazed that Ted Heath could get so much done.

Unfortunately, Ted Heath got into this terrible situation with the miners, which led to chaos, the three-day week, and led to his eventually losing the premiership. But not to go into that in too much detail, but that was all very much caused by, I think, the monetary policies of Ted Heath. The expansion of the money supply.

Lord Speaker:

Prices and incomes policy.

Lord Lamont:

Yes. We, in a futile attempt to deal with it, rather than tightening monetary policy, chose to have a statutory prices and incomes policy. I mean, people today can hardly believe that we used to have laws that regulated the price of milk, regulated the price of bread or anything. Anything in the shops was subject to legislation.

And this, of course couldn't possibly work in a free market economy. And that also fuelled inflation. And although I felt that the unions had to be tamed somewhat, in one sense, the unions were reacting to the inflation.

Lord Speaker:

But you were the youngest MP.

Lord Lamont:

Youngest Conservative.

Lord Speaker:

Conservative MP, 1972 if I remember. But your first contest was against John Prescott, and obviously he won. What was it like engaging with John Prescott at the time?

Lord Lamont:

Well, he was quite distant. I thought he was, to be honest, surprisingly edgy. I mean, he beat me by a small narrow majority of 24,000 votes, so he didn't have much to worry about. But I remember he kept denouncing me and wasn't very friendly at the count.

But I subsequently got to know John a little in London and in the House. And I like him very much and I respect him. And I think he was a very good MP who brought a lot to politics, and I can see why he was important to the Labour Party. I have a lot of respect for him.

Lord Speaker:

Yeah, there is a lot of respect for him. You then joined the Treasury, I think in 1986, and you were there for about seven years. And you had a close engagement with Nigel Lawson. Sadly, he just died recently. Give us a feel for that engagement and what you learned from Nigel Lawson.

Lord Lamont:

Well, I'd known Nigel Lawson really ever since I left university. I joined a political club that he was a member of in London. I'd got to know him over political dinners. And also I worked for a while before I became an MP in the Conservative research department.

And Nigel was working there, rather part-time, I think it was while he was also editor of the Spectator. But he was speech writing first for Alec Douglas-Home, and then for Ted Heath, and I got to know him then. I also got to know Nigel in a strange way. I was in competition with him to be the Conservative candidate for the constituency of Blaby for the 1974 election.

And this selection took place in 1972. And the shortlist for the constituency was Nigel and me. And the selection committee very wisely, I'm sure, absolutely wisely, chose Nigel instead of me. But I got into the House of Commons before Nigel because a few weeks later I got picked for a byelection in 1972. And Nigel sent me a charming postcard saying 'I'm so pleased I did you a wonderful favour by defeating you.'

Lord Speaker:

The exchange rate mechanism was a very-

Lord Lamont:

Maybe I should just say people to this day get very puzzled by why Nigel was in favour of joining the ERM. Because people associate the ERM with the single currency and that it was a dress rehearsal for the single currency. Nigel did not believe in the single currency. He was not a European federalist, a European unifier. He did support joining the EEC, but he didn't support a political Europe.

But he believed that by linking your currency to a hard, low-inflation currency, like the Deutschemark or like the ERM generally, which was a currency grid, your inflation rate would eventually converge with that of the low inflation rate countries. So it was after the period when monetary supply controls, control of the money supply had failed, proved too difficult as a guide for policy.

That was what the conservatives did originally in 1979. They set money supply targets. But money supply proved very difficult to control, very difficult to measure. And Nigel moved to the position of thinking exchange rate targeting was the answer to controlling inflation, and that was why he wanted to join it.

Lord Speaker:

Yeah, the exchange rate mechanism, that features a lot in your political life. And John Major supported you at that time, but I think there was a parting of the ways after that relationship and your views on it. Could you give me a few?

Lord Lamont:

Yeah. Well, the exchange rate mechanism, the fixed exchange rate system, it was John Major as chancellor who joined. I played no part in it. Most people seem to think I invented it. And I carried out the policy.

Actually when Nigel resigned, I was asked in the House of Commons by Giles Brandreth at question time, "Why haven't you resigned at the same time as Nigel Lawson?" And I replied to him, "Because I don't believe in joining the ERM." Well, that was a rather ironic thing because I became the Chancellor of the Exchequer eventually, who had to implement our policy of being in the ERM.

You merely need today to mention the words ERM to Conservative MPs, and you get a shudder. They think it's all... But actually, although I personally would not have joined the ERM, and although I personally didn't think it was a disaster when we had to leave, I think the period we were in the ERM for two years did actually do the economy a huge amount of good.

It did precisely what Nigel Lawson had thought it would do. It lowered inflation very dramatically. I mean, when I became Chancellor of the Exchequer, on the day I became, inflation was nearly 11%. Shortly after I left, inflation came down to two or three percent. It was painful. It was a tough medicine, but it really worked. And the period after we left the ERM, and the period after I was Chancellor, ushered in the longest period of growth, I think there was 60 quarters of positive growth.

Now, a lot of Conservative MPs mistakenly say, "Oh, that's because the pound was devalued." It wasn't just because the pound was devalued. It was because interest rates came down and inflation was now super competitive. We had inflation below the level of Germany for the first time for many years. And that was why we had this long boom, the main beneficiary of which was Gordon Brown and Tony Blair.

But when Conservatives say the ERM was a disaster, I think it was a political disaster. It was a great humiliation. But we would never have had the growth that we subsequently had if we hadn't actually had the discipline of being in. But it was a good thing we got out because it couldn't have gone on forever.

Lord Speaker:

William Hague and I did a visit to Japan, just the two of us, and one morning we went out running together and he said to me, "Interest rates are 8%." We went upstairs, showered, ate breakfast, and then he said to me, "Interest rates are about 12%." He says, "Given that I'm the PPS to the Chancellor, do you think I should fly back?"

I said, "I think that'd be a good idea, Will." [Laughter] As a result of that. And that was a really turbulent time. What was it like being in a room at that time? Because your memory, and that has still been same.

Lord Lamont:

Well, you're going back to the ERM?

Lord Speaker:

Yeah.

Lord Lamont:

Well, it's a complicated story, but people often say, "What was it like? What did you think?" I didn't have time to think about it. I just had to do what we had to do. A number of countries were under pressure in the same way, and they all put up interest rates, so we had to go.

The day started off, interest rates were 10, not eight, 10%. We put them up to 12. And I said to John Major, "The game's up. We will have to leave the ERM." But unfortunately, various cabinet ministers didn't agree. Douglas Hurd, Michael Heseltine, and Kenneth Clarke and they formed a committee with the Prime Minister. And they insisted really, that I put interest rates up to 15%, which I didn't want to do. I said, "It'll have no effect." Anyway in order to-

Lord Speaker:

It didn't, yeah.

Lord Lamont:

I put them up to 15% and it had no effect, and then we put them down again. It didn't look very pretty and it was very stupid.

Lord Speaker:

You were derided for that at the time, but some economic historians would say that you gave birth to inflation tracking and the public debt element. And that's what was a catalyst for the, as you say, the economic situation, which Tony Blair and Gordon Brown ushered in.

Lord Lamont:

Yeah. Well, thank you. I mean, I'm well aware now, opinion has swung a bit, not unanimously, but a bit back more in my favour, or in favour of what actually happened. After we left the ERM, I mean, we'd gone from control of the money supply to targeting the exchange rate. We had to have a new policy.

And the policy, which I introduced, I didn't invent it, it had already existed in New Zealand, was that of having an inflation target. I was a bit sceptical when we first introduced it because inflation targeting, which is targeting a specific rate of inflation, two to four percent, we introduced it, and then it became two percent. It's essentially backward looking. You are looking in the rear mirror, but of course when you are trying to fight inflation, you have to look forward as well. So I never abandoned looking at the money supply as well.

When I introduced inflation targeting, I did at the same time argue and say that we should have regard to the money supply as well, which was more of a forward-looking indicator of that. But the amazing thing is that inflation targeting until very recently has worked extraordinarily well.

I mean, people are at this moment, very critical of the Bank of England, and inflation has gone through the roof, but due to a lot of factors outside anybody's control. But over the whole period since inflation targeting was introduced, the 2% target has been hit for most of that time. It's only recently it's gone astray.

Lord Speaker:

Well, your views in QE in the Bank of England and independence of the Bank of England. Give us your views on that.

Lord Lamont:

Well, I was very much influenced by Nigel and became strongly in favour of an independent Bank of England. And I don't wish to make a point against John Major, but he and I had some disagreements about interest rate policy. And I felt sometimes he wanted to subordinate interest rate decisions to political factors. And I felt politics should have nothing to do really with it. You can't time an interest rate because there's a by-election or you've got a closing of a mine that you want to distract attention from.

And I did feel that from what I'd seen inside government, not just under John Major, but even under Mrs. Thatcher, politics intruded into interest rate decisions. And I felt this was wrong and led to bad policymaking. And so I was a strong supporter. I tried twice to persuade John Major that we should make the Bank of England independent.

But on both occasions, he rejected it. And I did actually go and see both Gordon Brown and Tony Blair when they were in opposition. And I told them that it wasn't my business to do anything to help the Labour Party, but I think it would be in the interest, thought it would be in the interest of the country, if they made the Bank of England independent.

I remember Tony Blair said to me, "You don't understand the Labour Party. They'd never accept it." And the day before Gordon Brown announced that he was making the Bank of England independent, he did ring me up and he said, "Well, we've decided to take your advice."

Lord Speaker:

So there you are. Okay. You were less guarded in some of the comments you made, like the green shoots and je ne regrette rien, and singing in the bath, tell me about them.

Lord Lamont:

Singing in the bath actually was slightly misreported. I didn't sing in the bath the day we left the ERM. But I think it was two or three days after we'd left the ERM. I was strolling in the garden in the British Embassy in Washington because I had to go to the IMF.

And I forget which interviewer it was, but someone caught me and they said, "You seem very cheerful this morning." It was a very sunny day in Washington, and someone said, "You seem very, very cheerful." And I said, "Well, that's funny you say that. My wife heard, says she heard me singing in the bath." That was the remark I made. I didn't say, "I sang in the bath when we left the ERM."

Je ne regrette rien. Well, that was a sort of, I was asked a question by a journalist, "What do you regret more? Singing in the bath or seeing green shoots?" And I replied, "Je ne regrette rien." How do you reply to a question like that?

Lord Speaker:

The role of the House of Lords, it's been questioned that there's wanting reform. Some people think, like Gordon Brown want route and branch reform, assembly of the nations and regions. What merit does the House of Lords have with its present composition and the different membership from the House of Lords from the House of Commons?

Lord Lamont:

Well, I think the House of Lords is a reforming chamber, and it is also a chamber of people of experience and expertise. And I think a second chamber is I think, important. I know there are countries in the world that have unicameral or one chamber government. But I think the House of Commons doesn't always scrutinise legislation as carefully as it should, and I think it's important to have proper scrutiny. I think the House of Lords does that well.

If we were starting from scratch, completely greenfield, I don't think one would design the House of Lords as it is today. I think ideally it would be 200, 300 very eminent experts, probably elected and maybe on a regional basis. I don't mind about that. I think that's the Gordon Brown plan.

But I don't think it's very easy to get there from where we are now. And I don't think that all the talk about the House of Lords is too large. Optically, it does look too large, but you know as well as I do, that in fact, there are 400 people or so who are here a lot of the time.

Also, the people who come occasionally make a valuable contribution. I once had a very interesting remark from Mrs. Thatcher. I asked her, "What do you think of the House of Lords?" And she said, "I think those who come the least often make the best contribution."

And if you think of somebody like Lord Browne of Madingley, or the Astronomer Royal, who come occasionally and make very outstanding speeches of great expertise, I think there is a role for them. But people look at this, theoretically, very large number.

I personally thought the scheme that was introduced by your predecessor and was observed by Theresa May, of gradually reducing the numbers, I personally thought that was very sensible. I strongly support it. As I say, ideally, if you were starting from scratch, I think we'd have a much smaller House and I think it would be elected.

But we're never going to get to that stage very easily without having a constitutional convention, cross-party agreement. So I would stick with what we've got now, but lower the numbers. But it does require discipline by Prime Ministers not to appoint all their cronies and friends. And I think Prime Ministers have got a bit loose with the appointments that they've been making. There have been too many of them.

I think it's also important that you don't just make into members of the House of Lords people who are, sort of, would be MPs. Being a member of the House of Lords is different from being an MP. And I don't think people should treat this place as though they were constituency MPs.

Lord Speaker:

How has the House of Commons changed since your day? Because some would say that the House of Commons now is a chamber where little scrutiny goes on.

Lord Lamont:

Well, I think that's absolutely right. I sort of used to wonder whether this was really true. But looking at some debates in Hansard of the House of Commons recently, I've been shocked at how truncated some quite controversial legislation has been. And key amendments have had, sort of, half an hour's debate or an hour's debate, and reply from the minister lasting 10 minutes.

I think the use of the guillotine and timetabling is really very reprehensible. So I think the House of Commons has changed, but I think the House of Commons has changed in all sorts of ways. It has also changed. I think there are, to be honest, too many professional politicians there.

And when I got into the House in 1972, I would guess the average age of the House was much older, and there were people who'd served in the war. People who didn't necessarily have an ambition to be a minister were content to be a constituency MP and do their service to the country. And it was a more stable assembly, really. I think in many ways, politics has become more volatile, more unstable in the House of Commons, and it's not always an attractive sight.

Lord Speaker :

You're a really strong proponent of Brexit. I've mentioned earlier, you were an early person in that area. But I get the feeling from what you said, engagement with Tony Blair and Gordon Brown, John Smith, and others, that you're reaching out now.

And I was quite struck by the initiative you undertook at Ditchley Park where Peter Mandelson and others were there. What was the reason for that? Was it to ensure that Brexit worked and political parties came together?

Lord Lamont:

Well, the invitation, as I understand it, the whole thing was the idea of Peter Mandelson. I mean, I was invited by Ditchley to go to this gathering to discuss Brexit and the future relationship. But I wasn't advocating any modification of the trade and cooperation agreement or modification of Brexit.

What I strongly believe in, I mean, I believe in Brexit strongly, but I believe that we should have a strong, harmonious, relationship with the EU, as a third party. And I think that's perfectly possible. And I think the fact of Brexit, the fact that it happened, caused a lot of angst and a lot of bitterness. And the people within the EU who, I mean Donald Tusk was reported as saying there was a special place in hell for those who voted for Brexit. I think we've got to overcome this and work together.

And I believe that even though we are an independent nation state and a third party to the EU, there are areas like foreign and security policy, where Britain can play a leading part in the continent of Europe. Our security concerns are shared with the EU. Britain played a leading part [on Ukraine].

I think one of the benefits of Brexit was the greater agility we have in foreign policy. We were able to act more quickly and send arms more quickly while France and Germany were agonising over this and agonising within the EU. The EU eventually got its act together, but 27 countries, it inevitably took a lot longer.

And I read the other day, someone in Brussels said, "Well, if Ukraine had been relying on the EU, the Russians would've been marching all over. Britain was the first off the mark." But all I wanted at that gathering at Ditchley was to explore different ways in which we could improve our relationship, show that we were friendly. That we want to have partnerships in all sorts of areas like Horizon, for example. That's all it was about.

Can I just say for me, Brexit was not really about economics. It was about sovereignty. It was about independence of this country. I mean, while I was Chancellor, I negotiated our opt out from the single currency, and I lived through this whole thing, and I saw how the nature of Europe was changing. And before I became a minister, I believed this was all rhetoric. It wouldn't really happen.

All this stuff about a United States of Europe, a political union. But my experience as a minister was that they were deadly serious about this and wanted it to happen. And we were going to become more and more politically integrated, and that would undermine our democracy at home.

And that's what I feel to this day. And so I don't agonise about Brexit and worry about the economic consequences. I think the economic consequences will be fine. But for me, the prize was avoiding political union

Lord Speaker:

During the Major premiership, in the '90s, we had the Maastricht Treaty, and John Smith was very prominent in that area. What was your opinion of the Maastricht Treaty? Because it caused a lot of division in the Conservative party.

Lord Lamont:

Yeah. Well, the Maastricht Treaty, if you remember, was the treaty that had the single currency provisions in it. So when I say I negotiated our opt-out from the single currency, I was negotiating part of the, well, I was negotiating our opt-out from the single currency, from the Maastricht Treaty as regards to single currency.

So I thought as Mrs. Thatcher put it, the Maastricht Treaty was a bridge too far. It wasn't just the single currency. There were other provisions like an integrated policy on security, defence. Well, some of this was amended, but we then had the Maastricht Treaty followed by the Lisbon and Nice treaties. And for me, that was all far too much.

Lord Speaker:

You mentioned Mrs. Thatcher. What was it like working with her?

Lord Lamont:

Well, I always got on well with her, but Mrs. Thatcher, it was her willpower that was so remarkable, and her courage. And she would sometimes just ask questions no one would had thought of asking, "Why don't we do this? Why isn't this possible?"

And she was a person of great integrity, I would say as well. She never did anything dishonourable, never wanted to do anything dishonourable. Very clear about what she wanted. And an inspiring person to work for, but she could be very difficult.

Lord Speaker:

What was your most difficult engagement with her?

Lord Lamont:

Well, I remember once, if I can tell a story, it's rather a long story, but she was once came back to this country and told me that she wanted to subsidise film studios in Rainham Marshes on Essex. And I couldn't believe she wanted to do this.

And I said to her, "But, Prime Minister," I didn't believe that we wanted to subsidise industries. "Prime Minister, there's no unemployment in Rainham Marshes in Essex. Prime Minister, we have to build the roads to get there." And she got anger and angrier and angrier.

And I remember she said to me, "You are impossible. All you ever say to me is no." And then she said, "If you'd been in my government since 1979, I wouldn't have achieved anything." And I said to her, "Well, Prime Minister, you're always right about everything, but you're forgetting I've been in your government ever since 1979." [Laughter]

Lord Speaker:

Very good. What advice have you got for the Conservative government now?

Lord Lamont:

Well, I personally think that Rishi Sunak's pursuing the right policies. I would say stop quarrelling, stop bitching with each other, support the Prime Minister. He's the best Prime Minister you've got. He's a serious, highly intelligent person. Any country would be proud to have him as Prime Minister and back him.

Lord Speaker:

Last question. Given your longevity in parliamentary life and your comments about the House of Commons and House of Lords, what advice would you give to young people about embarking on a political life?

Lord Lamont:

Well, I always encourage young people to think about having a career in politics. I think we all need to be interested in politics. I was taught at school that the Greek word for idiot was apoliti, somebody who's not interested in politics. I think it's the duty of everybody to be interested in politics.

And I think our country will only prosper and do well if people of ability and talent who might succeed in other walks of life, are prepared to take the risks. And there are risks in a political career, and you risk your reputation. It's a very dangerous job being a politician, but people have got to be prepared to do that for the public good.

And I like to think that there are people who will always feel this is a challenge. It's a great thing to do, and that they're going to embark on it.

Lord Speaker:

And apoliti, that will stay in my mind. So thank you very much, Lord Lamont. It's been very, very revealing and engaging.